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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2020 21:25:35 GMT
Just my opinion Which is why I stopped responding to him. Nothing more or sinister than that. I wasn't questioning the first assertion, I was questioning your 'can't be assedness' That is the bit that, at page 5,seems not to be wholly true Or maybe not even a smidgeony bit true Ha ha Sorry. Went over my head. Oh, I can be assed alright. To have a logical discussion, quite enjoy it and it's always good to read the considered views of others on topics that I am interested in. Whether I agree with the views expressed is not relevant and happy to learn anything new. Just for clarity
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2020 22:34:31 GMT
Spot the similarities between the following two quotes! The guy has a problem Shoveler. I cannot be assed to debate with someone who, quite clearly, has some deep psychological need for me to agree with him. Please say 'arsed' not 'assed', Sir. You're welcome to it Shoves. Complete waste of time. I'm wrong all the time, it's probably the best way to learn. Oldie is never wrong. It's just tedious and a waste of energy trying to discuss anything with him. Yet here we still are, again. We've all problems, and we've all faults. My complaint about you two is that your debates have degenerated into insult. We don't want to read about how wrong you think the other guy is. We want to read why. Assertion, argument, rationale, evidence, citation if you wish; this is worth reading. What a bellend you might think your opponent is, we don't care. Play the ball, not the man. You're both better than this. Challenge yourself to oppose only your opponent's argument, and never again his intellect or person. Then we all might learn something. You're both interesting thinkers, and just the right distance apart to be interesting. I place you as Marxist Social Democrat and Neo-Conservative Pragmatist, respectively. Don't leave good manners to the Liberals; they're already far too smug. Come on, gentlemen. Argue about issues, don't whine about each other.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2020 23:55:36 GMT
Spot the similarities between the following two quotes! The guy has a problem Shoveler. I cannot be assed to debate with someone who, quite clearly, has some deep psychological need for me to agree with him. Please say 'arsed' not 'assed', Sir. You're welcome to it Shoves. Complete waste of time. I'm wrong all the time, it's probably the best way to learn. Oldie is never wrong. It's just tedious and a waste of energy trying to discuss anything with him. Yet here we still are, again. We've all problems, and we've all faults. My complaint about you two is that your debates have degenerated into insult. We don't want to read about how wrong you think the other guy is. We want to read why. Assertion, argument, rationale, evidence, citation if you wish; this is worth reading. What a bellend you might think your opponent is, we don't care. Play the ball, not the man. You're both better than this. Challenge yourself to oppose only your opponent's argument, and never again his intellect or person. Then we all might learn something. You're both interesting thinkers, and just the right distance apart to be interesting. I place you as Marxist Social Democrat and Neo-Conservative Pragmatist, respectively. Don't leave good manners to the Liberals; they're already far too smug. Come on, gentlemen. Argue about issues, don't whine about each other. That's the exact problem though, trying to discuss things is pointless. Why bother when, for example, you've had this EU thing thrust at you for literally years, eventually you think, do you know what, if he's determined to have them, OK, I'll give him some examples of EU policy that adversely effect our lives, he now has them, is asked just to nod and say something like, 'Well, OK, those are decent examples that I wasn't aware of, but in the round, in my opinion, we would still be better off remaining as a member state'. Then we could finish our drinks, work out whose round it was and move on, but he's incapable. Nope, you're welcome to it. You can see where he's at even now, pretending that he stopped replying, just scroll up and see what actually happened. But don't worry, he'll be arguing with someone else soon enough for your entertainment. Check the other forum. He has previous.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2020 10:26:49 GMT
Spot the similarities between the following two quotes! The guy has a problem Shoveler. I cannot be assed to debate with someone who, quite clearly, has some deep psychological need for me to agree with him. Please say 'arsed' not 'assed', Sir. You're welcome to it Shoves. Complete waste of time. I'm wrong all the time, it's probably the best way to learn. Oldie is never wrong. It's just tedious and a waste of energy trying to discuss anything with him. Yet here we still are, again. We've all problems, and we've all faults. My complaint about you two is that your debates have degenerated into insult. We don't want to read about how wrong you think the other guy is. We want to read why. Assertion, argument, rationale, evidence, citation if you wish; this is worth reading. What a bellend you might think your opponent is, we don't care. Play the ball, not the man. You're both better than this. Challenge yourself to oppose only your opponent's argument, and never again his intellect or person. Then we all might learn something. You're both interesting thinkers, and just the right distance apart to be interesting. I place you as Marxist Social Democrat and Neo-Conservative Pragmatist, respectively. Don't leave good manners to the Liberals; they're already far too smug. Come on, gentlemen. Argue about issues, don't whine about each other. That post did make me smile Shoveler. Especially depicting me as a Marxist. Funnily enough I was watching a re-run of Andrew Mare's "The Making of Modern Britain" the other evening and they touched on that "hot" summer of 1968. The year I became politically "active". They showed the riot in Grosvenor Sq, but didn't mention the links with Danny the Red in Paris or Baader Meinhof in Germany. Watching it my gut reaction was we should have followed through. But that was a long time ago. On debating, I will debate with anyone, including Bamber. I guess the conclusion I came to was that it's impossible, difficult to remain reasonable, when almost every post he makes is littered with phrases such as "Poor Old Oldie" "This will not end well for you" etc etc. That is not concentrating on any point being made and generally his sentence ends with "answer or concede the point" To which my reaction is "f off". There is also a degree of paranoia, a suggestion of "intellectual insecurity complex" Take the Exam Question on EU membership. "Name one law that has affected you personally" It was one that those of us on the side of the pro economic argument (remain) asked over the years. Never did see a coherent answer anywhere, ever, from anyone. But, we lost, we move on. But no, lo and behold years later on a completely unrelated thread he says "look, here is an answer". What??? Has it been stewing in that little leaver brain all this time? Oh, apparently I have form for consistently arguing the same points elsewhere. Clearly he has been reading my contributions to topics, without taking part himself. A little strange you might concede. So no, sadly I came to the conclusion he is slightly deranged and it's hard to have a debate which, without some form of logic, which, as a result almost always leads to personal insults, a trap I fell into and of course apologised for. Actually, before I sign off your description of me as a Marxist has reminded me of a Rovers related conversation. Many many moons ago, in the early days of discussions over fan involvement with the club I enjoyed a couple of lunches with Geoff Dunford. He described me as the "Conservative"representative of fan involvement. A few years later I had met Kim Stuckey and we used to meet regularly for lunch in London. At one of those he described me as the "Red Wedge", it did make me smile. Anyway, despite the trip down memory lane, I hope I have explained why I feel debating with Bamber is fruitless. However, now that Swiss has exposed himself as "comfortably naive" in his gated white enclave, bring it on.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 9:40:50 GMT
Anyone watched the scenes in America after the police killed another Afro American?
Still, there will be a joke on Saturday Night Live which just proves that racism is a thing of the past.
Meanwhile, in a gated white enclave in Kentucky...
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 12:35:15 GMT
Anyone bothered looking for the figures involving white Police related deaths in America?
There are far more of them than there are black deaths. But then again, someone continually referencing only 1 side of things may be lacking objectivity and appear desperate to find racism everywhere when there's no evidence for it.
How about looking a little deeper to understand what's actually happening.
40% of the people killed by US Police are white. Any emotion on behalf of those people, any, anything at all? No, thought not. Are they, their families, friends, workmates even on his radar? Or is his desire just to be outraged on behalf of one sector of society?
For normal people, who read headlines or listen to Black radical rhetoric from groups like Black Lives Matter, broadcast on pantomime channels like CNN and The BBC, and are wondering what the heck is going on 'Stateside' with Police running riot killing black people left right and centre, here are some actual statistics;
On average, 23~25% of people killed by US Police are Afro-Caribbean, now here's where the problems start, around 13% of the US population fits that demographic, so you are, based on skin colour alone, twice as likely to have a fatal encounter with Police in America if you are black.
But still this doesn't tell the whole story, here's where the figures start to get truly scary, although black people make up around 13% of the US population they commit over 50% of crime!
So based on that, we have to do some calculations to work out whether 13% of the population, responsible for 50% of crime, aligns with 25% of fatal interactions.
Of course, sat behind that are the social issues that lead to that 50% crime figure, but Trump is making some progress here, small progress, slow progress, but it's a start. Is it enough? It's never enough until equality of opportunity is flat across the whole of society, but at least Trump is trying, unlike Obama, he just made things worse.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 14:53:08 GMT
So, If you storm the State Legislature in an armed mob, but no one gets arrested and therefore no crime is recorded, and you are in a group of 100% white people...has crime been committed? But not recorded? If you are a black man who is out bird watching in Central Park and a white women calls 911 and says the guy is threatening her life, is that then recorded based on the 911 emergency call?
It's easy to wave a hand and say yeah I know there might be social factors involved, but then to make no attempt to quantify is intellectually lazy and analytically incoherent.
To then to also state blithely that Trump is making progress without quantifying how, then ditto. One of the biggest issues facing poorer Americans, in general, was and is Health Insurance. The only President who tried to take that on...yes you got it, Obama. Trump is undoing that as best he can. The other two planks of a civilised society and which hit the poorest hardest are Education and Housing
Trump...don't make me laugh.
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Post by swissgas on May 28, 2020 14:59:23 GMT
Anyone watched the scenes in America after the police killed another Afro American? Still, there will be a joke on Saturday Night Live which just proves that racism is a thing of the past. Meanwhile, in a gated white enclave in Kentucky... There is a divide in American society but it's between a section of the media / political establishment who are intent on stirring up trouble and the rest of us. The rest of us includes the police, religious leaders, teachers, medical and social services staff, community workers and everyone else who has to deal with the effects of poverty and lack of social cohesion on a daily basis. The deliberately provocative and unrepresentative scenes shown on TV are hand picked to create the greatest amount of fear and anxiety among all sections of society not just those who happen to have white skin. The answer, as I think you know Oldie, is to have a thriving economy and make manufacturing a priority. If young people have a job to do from 8 to 5 they immediately find a purpose in life, they come under the influence of older and wiser people, they earn respect and they discover that taking part in society is much preferable to wasting their time away with drugs and crime.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 16:02:13 GMT
I can find examples of poor behaviour by pretty much any group of people, what does that do, how does that help?
You do realise that statistically, a black motorist in America is marginally less likely to be prosecuted for committing an offence as a white person is for committing the exact same offence. Where are we now, are the Police suddenly anti-white?
Stop this pointless knockabout nonsense, there are big issues here to look at.
Why, with only 13% of the population is 1 ethnic group committing 52% of crime and accounting for 40% of prison population?
If someone thinks that waving their arms around shouting about division is going to help, I disagree, I prefer what Swiss is saying, stop telling people why they are failing and why everything is set against them and give them a bit of hope. To that end, and I say this with as much respect as I can muster, it would be helpful if a certain political element would just pipe down a little and stop stirring up tension and pretending that everything is driven by some hate filled personal agenda.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 10:51:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 10:54:30 GMT
The President of the United States has just tweeted an offer to send in the troops to shoot protesters
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 10:58:17 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 16:26:57 GMT
Are the EU boycotting Chinese goods, have they withdrawn from the EU - PRC trade agreement?
I'll answer that, no they haven't, so yet another argument that vanishes in a puff of logic.
Meanwhile, nearer home, French navy vessels chase inflatables full of migrants out of French waters into British waters in the English Channel, knowing that we won't just chase them back into French territory, we do the decent thing and pick them up. I'm rather glad that we are creating distance between ourselves and a country who would do that to a small craft full of human beings, yet some people who seem to want to make a fuss about international issues have nothing to say. Maybe Channel 4 or The Guardian forgot to report this?
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 21:18:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 23:14:18 GMT
Meanwhile, a normal Man at work.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 16:35:49 GMT
Here are some actual numbers, direct from the US Crime & Law enforcement Society.
2017. Total fatal Police shootings 987. White victims 457 Black victims 223 2018 996 399 209 2019 1004 370 235
Whilst obviously we all understand that we want every number there to be 0, nobody should be losing their lives in an encounter with a law enforcement officer, it's not just the victims, it's the people they leave behind who have their lives thrown into total turmoil as well, but wouldn't you expect a group responsible for 52% of crime to be having more than circa 23% of those fatal interactions?
One section of the US media have a hell of a lot to answer for, whipping this up into a national riot. Anybody could be forgiven for thinking it's an election year. Truly disgusting behaviour.
But then again, nothing surprises me from that side of politics. These are the people who call migrants in the English Channel 'refugees'. no they aren't, France is a safe country, or is it no longer safe to visit France on holiday?
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 17:07:49 GMT
Right, let's try to park this Fox and CNN junk on one side and use some proper research, only 18 pages long, so hopefully it won't be dismissed in the same way as Professor Peterson's work was. Read this, not bang up to date, from 2012, but indicative and very interesting. Do Race and Ethnicity Matter in Prosecution? A Review of Empirical Studies Research paper here.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 18:40:51 GMT
I am not going to declare my source on the following, but this happened over the last ten days.
Black teenager "rolls" a Stop Sign. For those that don't know, stop signs in the USA are like traffic calming in sensitive areas, like around schools or residential areas. You are supposed to come to a complete stop. Rolling is when slow almost completely but not a dead stop. So cops witnessed and followed the kid (17) who it turns out was driving to his grandmother's house. They pull up behind his vehicle as he gets out on granny's drive way. Then sh** happens. They pull guns, he lies on the driveway. They shout at him telling him to get up. The kid is crying, saying if I get up you will shoot me. His gran comes out and straddles the boy and tells the cops to out their guns away. They refuse and charge at her knocking her over. They cuff the kid and take him away.
Meanwhile, 4 white lads, 16/17 are driving back from a get together. Driving erratically and spotted by the cops they are pulled over. The cops breath test the driver. He tests positive for DUI, alcohol. What happens? The cop calls the mother of the driver....and let's them go.
sh** like this has been going on since forever. I don't condone violence, looting or wanton destruction.
But I sure as hell understand it. Sadly the ballot box has not worked for these folk
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 19:11:10 GMT
I'll find isolated incidents that at the very least match yours.
I don't believe that story anyway, on his way to a known address, he would know the road layout, Grandmother happens to put herself in harms way, witnesses, all far too convenient.
But I have seen footage with supporting audio of a young black guy pulled over, routine stop, asked to produce his licence, he tells the officer it's in the glove box, officer tells him to get it out, he opens the glove box, officer shoots him dead. The defence was that the officer thought he may have been going for a gun, but you can hear the officer authorise him to go to the glove box. If you want some proper examples, just ask, I have better ones to support your argument than the rubbish you are using.
I also know about Officer Michael Owen Jr who shot and killed a black Man who had his hands cuffed behind his back and who was wearing a seatbelt in the back of a Police car, not shot once, shot 7 (yes seven) times. Officer Owen is also black. Where are we now?
I know about the long history of Black Lives Matter activists murdering Police officers, I'll name some of the dead Police if you think that helpful in any way?
It remains, if you scroll up, US Police kill more white people than black, every single year. By all means, discredit and disprove those numbers. What should 'white folk' do at the ballot box to sort this out do you think?
Have you calculated whether 13% of the population committing 50% of the crime corelates to 23% of fatal encounters with Police?
Have you read that research paper to see how it relates to and clarifies your claims that only certain crimes are charged? You clearly haven't. This is where you let yourself down time after time, you argue with just emotion, it feels wrong, so it must be wrong. Go do some proper research, when you have, come back, we'll have an informed discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 7:30:06 GMT
Here we go. Rubber bullets fired at protesters today, to ensure this utter bollox goes ahead. Right Wing Propaganda at its finest.
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