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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 15:53:10 GMT
This really made me laugh out loud " Why don't you do what other people do and get some serious research on US race under your belt, find out about the % of crimes committed, who they are committed by, critically who the victims are*, and now the point that you'll be blissfully unaware of, what % of the black community live in single parent families and how being in a single parent family affects you in terms of the likelihood of you ending up on the wrong side of the law or failing to complete your education. Now see what happens to your career chances in America if you don't complete your education." So, I lived in the States for ten years,in the South. I travelled extensively both for my business and for pleasure. I was an employer with one business employing primarily Afro Americans. I witnessed first hand the pressure they were under, housing, education an unwritten segregation. To give you an example the educational segregation was so bad in the county I lived in that eventually two High Schools were merged so that Afro American kids were bussed into the predominantly white school. So, please refrain from asking me to "read" something. I lived with it first hand. To add. My eldest son is Managing Director of World Wide Education Services for a major Consultancy / IT/ Financial Service Co. Total employees 500,000. So to be honest, I think my, now our, exposure and now provider insight to the reality of life in the States requires no input from you. To use your language, let me give you a way out. Why not articulate what drives the breakdown of social structures in any given community.I'll have a stab at it: drugs and/or alcohol abuse. Not sure what drives people to use drugs and/or abuse alcohol abuse though... But that's the very point Epping, what causes substance abuse, in its essence. If you were a young Afro American born into a working class household, add in the South for a bit extra, what do you think your expectations might be at 16? Some gross generalisations here but take the period from 1980 on. Your parents were most likely have been subject to Apartheid. Religion and the associated institutions had failed as vehicles for change. Schooling was most likely substandard and most likely housed in appalling facilities in a violent urban environment, or in small country schools where expectations were non existent. Whilst I was there Clinton was Governor of Arkansas (think I got the State right) He fired en bloc State Educational heads due to the shocking educational standards. Sport was a way out, but really? Such a tiny percentage. Music..good stuff but in reality the street culture around that was gang and drug related and the illusion of instant "wealth"...well you know. Getting a job. Good luck with that as black boy or girl, especially in the South. They were, are, treated pretty much as we were as working class kids in the sixties. Educational expectations were not great and we were expected to be either factory or cannon fodder for the Eaton Old Boys. Drug taking was rife amongst us in the late sixties just to draw that parralell closer. So given the lack of an attractive and clear path it's not hard to see how a society starts to breakdown from its youth up. What I found interesting and rather proves the point was Atlanta GA. They had the first black Mayor, Andrew Young, in America. That was 1982. Today it is the centre of afro American middle class upwards mobility in the South. Anyway when judging how segments of society behave it's pretty useless quoting the sterile statistics as Bamber has done which, whilst being true, give little insight into causal factors. It's the same with the Middle East. Look at the history of Iran and our (UK) finger prints are all over it and in a quite disgraceful way. Take Iraq and look at what happened to Mesopotamia after WW1, and look up Gertrude Bell, daughter of one of the Eaton Good Old Boys and the French. Then ask yourself why there is unresolved conflict. The point being the choice is being like Bamber who reads to affirm his malformed opinion, an opinion based upon ignorance, or actually see it,live it and / or spread the reading of available literature.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 16:00:57 GMT
Don't make it that easy for Oldie. First, make him define which element of society he's describing. Before you start though, he isn't here to learn anything or consider alternative points of view, I'll wager he still hasn't looked at that link to Professor Peterson's work, all Oldie wants to do is proselytise. Like I said I require no input from you as the value of such is as questionable at best. Ha Ha, Oldie thinks that Professor Peterson's research is 'questionable at best'. That would be political liberal Professor Jordan Peterson PHD, former director of the Center for American Political Studies at Harvard University and of the Governmental Studies Program at the Brookings Institution. former adviser to the U.N., author of over 100 peer reviewed academic papers which have been cited over 8000 times, author of best selling books in multiple countries, that Professor Peterson. Just remind us what your academic qualifications or experiences are that allow you to dismiss Professor Peterson's work so glibly please? You didn't even find someone who put an opposing point of view to Professor Peterson. Utterly hopeless. Edit. Geez, just read your rant and you conclude by accusing me of reading to reinforce my views and you pretend that you are the one trying to spread information via available literature when you have refused to read something from a World renowned expert. Yea, OK then, whatever, I'm sure you're right. You do realise that there's a teeny weeny flaw in your position, don't you?
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Post by swissgas on May 21, 2020 16:51:36 GMT
Not sure I really want to get involved in this but since I've lived in the USA for the past thirteen years I guess I do have something to contribute.
I agree with Irish that US College Sport is difficult to comprehend but, in my experience, it makes a lot of people both on and off campus very happy.
And, in terms of society, through community work I come across people of many different skin colors who would be classed economically as grossly under privileged but, generally, they are very happy.
What I find disturbing is the amount of effort being made by a section of people, backed strongly by the media, who are determined to do things which seem to have the main aim of making people very unhappy.
I've heard them called "grievance groups" and their priority is to seek out grievances which,if they can't find any, they set about creating in the name of the chosen "aggrieved". As a guest in the USA I am cautious about commenting publicly but a few years ago I did ask a question which nearly got me into trouble. Why were some very clever and influential people spending so much time, effort and money into having 120 year old statues of Confederate figures moved away from a prominent place in the City when less than a mile from there, in "the hood", youth centers were closing due to lack of funding and leadership ? The answer was that I should mind my own business. I believe this was because, from our ex President downward, there is a group of people who are determined to create division where none actually exists. They know their crusade is prejudicing the happiness of those they claim they want to help and they know it is undermining the efforts of those on the ground who actually give practical encouragement day in day out, but they still carry on ?
I don't know why they do it but if they are successful I have a fair idea of where it is going to end. And that is why, very reluctantly, I am now following the lead of many friends and neighbors who are setting up defensive measures just in case.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 20:23:00 GMT
Not sure I really want to get involved in this but since I've lived in the USA for the past thirteen years I guess I do have something to contribute. I agree with Irish that US College Sport is difficult to comprehend but, in my experience, it makes a lot of people both on and off campus very happy. And, in terms of society, through community work I come across people of many different skin colors who would be classed economically as grossly under privileged but, generally, they are very happy. What I find disturbing is the amount of effort being made by a section of people, backed strongly by the media, who are determined to do things which seem to have the main aim of making people very unhappy. I've heard them called "grievance groups" and their priority is to seek out grievances which,if they can't find any, they set about creating in the name of the chosen "aggrieved". As a guest in the USA I am cautious about commenting publicly but a few years ago I did ask a question which nearly got me into trouble. Why were some very clever and influential people spending so much time, effort and money into having 120 year old statues of Confederate figures moved away from a prominent place in the City when less than a mile from there, in "the hood", youth centers were closing due to lack of funding and leadership ? The answer was that I should mind my own business. I believe this was because, from our ex President downward, there is a group of people who are determined to create division where none actually exists. They know their crusade is prejudicing the happiness of those they claim they want to help and they know it is undermining the efforts of those on the ground who actually give practical encouragement day in day out, but they still carry on ? I don't know why they do it but if they are successful I have a fair idea of where it is going to end. And that is why, very reluctantly, I am now following the lead of many friends and neighbors who are setting up defensive measures just in case. Jesus Christ Swiss Really? Addressing and recognising the faults of the past does not make anyone unhappy except those who revere those very faults. Don't we have the same debate here? Many want memorials / statues which reference the past torn down because of what they represent. Take Colston in Bristol for example. Many argued a couple of years ago to have his statue removed from the Centre. I disagreed with that, but the wording on that statue should be reworded to expose to the next generations what he did and the human cost of his "wealth creation" Your reference to Obama shouts at me that, like a lot of the comfortable white middle class, you don't want to be reminded of the sins of the past, perhaps still current. Out of site out of mind out of mind so to speak. Perhaps you might listen to Billie Holiday with her rendition of "Strange Fruit" to give you some perspective.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 20:27:39 GMT
Like I said I require no input from you as the value of such is as questionable at best. Ha Ha, Oldie thinks that Professor Peterson's research is 'questionable at best'. That would be political liberal Professor Jordan Peterson PHD, former director of the Center for American Political Studies at Harvard University and of the Governmental Studies Program at the Brookings Institution. former adviser to the U.N., author of over 100 peer reviewed academic papers which have been cited over 8000 times, author of best selling books in multiple countries, that Professor Peterson. Just remind us what your academic qualifications or experiences are that allow you to dismiss Professor Peterson's work so glibly please? You didn't even find someone who put an opposing point of view to Professor Peterson. Utterly hopeless. Edit. Geez, just read your rant and you conclude by accusing me of reading to reinforce my views and you pretend that you are the one trying to spread information via available literature when you have refused to read something from a World renowned expert. Yea, OK then, whatever, I'm sure you're right. You do realise that there's a teeny weeny flaw in your position, don't you? Jog along son and when you have a point of view which you can justify with a proper reference to factual events with some appropriate causal factor analysis, some academic research which are able to quote in context of the point you are trying to make, perhaps you will have some credibility. A view that does not necessitate a rather pathetic need to try and ridicule, to try and predetermine an outcome in a vain attempt to deflect. Quite frankly your clear excitement over this or that authors level of attainment is painfully embarrassing coming from a grown man.
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Post by swissgas on May 21, 2020 21:34:19 GMT
Not sure I really want to get involved in this but since I've lived in the USA for the past thirteen years I guess I do have something to contribute. I agree with Irish that US College Sport is difficult to comprehend but, in my experience, it makes a lot of people both on and off campus very happy. And, in terms of society, through community work I come across people of many different skin colors who would be classed economically as grossly under privileged but, generally, they are very happy. What I find disturbing is the amount of effort being made by a section of people, backed strongly by the media, who are determined to do things which seem to have the main aim of making people very unhappy. I've heard them called "grievance groups" and their priority is to seek out grievances which,if they can't find any, they set about creating in the name of the chosen "aggrieved". As a guest in the USA I am cautious about commenting publicly but a few years ago I did ask a question which nearly got me into trouble. Why were some very clever and influential people spending so much time, effort and money into having 120 year old statues of Confederate figures moved away from a prominent place in the City when less than a mile from there, in "the hood", youth centers were closing due to lack of funding and leadership ? The answer was that I should mind my own business. I believe this was because, from our ex President downward, there is a group of people who are determined to create division where none actually exists. They know their crusade is prejudicing the happiness of those they claim they want to help and they know it is undermining the efforts of those on the ground who actually give practical encouragement day in day out, but they still carry on ? I don't know why they do it but if they are successful I have a fair idea of where it is going to end. And that is why, very reluctantly, I am now following the lead of many friends and neighbors who are setting up defensive measures just in case. Jesus Christ Swiss Really? Addressing and recognising the faults of the past does not make anyone unhappy except those who revere those very faults. Don't we have the same debate here? Many want memorials / statues which reference the past torn down because of what they represent. Take Colston in Bristol for example. Many argued a couple of years ago to have his statue removed from the Centre. I disagreed with that, but the wording on that statue should be reworded to expose to the next generations what he did and the human cost of his "wealth creation" Your reference to Obama shouts at me that, like a lot of the comfortable white middle class, you don't want to be reminded of the sins of the past, perhaps still current. Out of site out of mind out of mind so to speak. Perhaps you might listen to Billie Holiday with her rendition of "Strange Fruit" to give you some perspective. I take the view that MLK Jnr and others did the hard work and were successful in forcing a seismic change in society which will not be reversed. The priority now, IMO, is to build on those achievements and smooth over the cracks not start the whole battle again. And that's why I'm so surprised people like Barack Obama leap up every time there is a chance that race might be a factor in any issue and try to claim discrimination is rife, is causing misery and that we must make a priority of searching for and rooting out any hint of racism. To me all that does is to open up old wounds which have been slowly healing over the last fifty years. I genuinely wonder why they do it because the evidence I see on the ground is that, for the most part, people in minority groups are not resentful and don't feel oppressed they just want a chance to enjoy their lives. I agree with you that the cause of progression in society is helped if Colston's statue remains because inquisitive children for generations to come will then seek to learn it's history and be able to form their own judgement on it ? There is a school of thought which says the attempted post war destruction of Nazi sites in Germany did more harm than good because younger generations started asking "if this was so bad why are they trying to pretend it never happened, why won't they let us make our own minds up about it ?". And whether we should be allowed to make our own minds up is one of the greatest issues facing us today because IMO there is a tremendous danger now that those with influence, are not using their power wisely. In the Billie Holiday era it was the forces of Conservatism who were telling people in the Southern USA what to think but, fortunately, enough people rejected that instruction, rejected the doctrine of intolerance, thought for themselves, decided discrimination wasn't right and brought about change. Now I feel there has been an about turn and it is the forces of what is loosely called "Liberalism" who are preaching intolerance and instructing people that discrimination and injustice is rife when really it isn't. They are promoting unrest and disharmony when there is no need for it. My hope is that people will be brave enough to make their own minds up about whether racial discrimination today is an issue worth wreaking havoc for or whether it is a type of behaviour limited to a sad and dwindling minority which in a few generations will be largely forgotten about.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 21:47:19 GMT
Ha Ha, Oldie thinks that Professor Peterson's research is 'questionable at best'. That would be political liberal Professor Jordan Peterson PHD, former director of the Center for American Political Studies at Harvard University and of the Governmental Studies Program at the Brookings Institution. former adviser to the U.N., author of over 100 peer reviewed academic papers which have been cited over 8000 times, author of best selling books in multiple countries, that Professor Peterson. Just remind us what your academic qualifications or experiences are that allow you to dismiss Professor Peterson's work so glibly please? You didn't even find someone who put an opposing point of view to Professor Peterson. Utterly hopeless. Edit. Geez, just read your rant and you conclude by accusing me of reading to reinforce my views and you pretend that you are the one trying to spread information via available literature when you have refused to read something from a World renowned expert. Yea, OK then, whatever, I'm sure you're right. You do realise that there's a teeny weeny flaw in your position, don't you? Jog along son and when you have a point of view which you can justify with a proper reference to factual events with some appropriate causal factor analysis, some academic research which are able to quote in context of the point you are trying to make, perhaps you will have some credibility. A view that does not necessitate a rather pathetic need to try and ridicule, to try and predetermine an outcome in a vain attempt to deflect. Quite frankly your clear excitement over this or that authors level of attainment is painfully embarrassing coming from a grown man. If using just Professor Peterson's qualifications was my argument then that would be an argument from authority, but that's not what I did, I invited you to read the work of a world respected expert, it played in to the allegation that you made of misogyny. You didn't read it, nor will you. I found robust research, you've just dismissed it out of hand. You can sit there convincing yourself that you have the best approach to learning, but if it's OK with you, I'll stick to my way of doing things. One other point, and I think it's worth making. You've said over a period of years that my personal experience isn't sufficient to support an argument during debate, and I should provide evidence, now you say that your experience is fine to underpin your position and you have refused over a period of days to even look at the work of a guy who was head of dept at Harvard and advised the UN. It's inconsistent and I'm sorry to say, it doesn't reflect too well on you at all. Just to jump sideways for a moment. Ref Colston. I have a diverse group of friends and associates. Not one of my black friends was interested in any statue of Colston or in whether a run down event hall carried his name, they are all too busy dealing with the same stuff that you and I do every day, just normal stuff that people do, it was a small number of vocal people making the noise. Then, if you want to be even handed, should we talk about what Thomas More did? Yes, the same Thomas More that the Bristol school is named after. He was a particularly sadistic inquisitor with a taste for burning people alive. A singularly unpleasant person. Should the school change it's name, or should his character be accurately reflected at the school entrance? BTW, the bloke was obviously a complete and utter ba**ard, so you won't be surprised to learn that in 2000 the Pope made him Patron Saint of politicians.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 9:39:38 GMT
Jesus Christ Swiss Really? Addressing and recognising the faults of the past does not make anyone unhappy except those who revere those very faults. Don't we have the same debate here? Many want memorials / statues which reference the past torn down because of what they represent. Take Colston in Bristol for example. Many argued a couple of years ago to have his statue removed from the Centre. I disagreed with that, but the wording on that statue should be reworded to expose to the next generations what he did and the human cost of his "wealth creation" Your reference to Obama shouts at me that, like a lot of the comfortable white middle class, you don't want to be reminded of the sins of the past, perhaps still current. Out of site out of mind out of mind so to speak. Perhaps you might listen to Billie Holiday with her rendition of "Strange Fruit" to give you some perspective. I take the view that MLK Jnr and others did the hard work and were successful in forcing a seismic change in society which will not be reversed. The priority now, IMO, is to build on those achievements and smooth over the cracks not start the whole battle again. And that's why I'm so surprised people like Barack Obama leap up every time there is a chance that race might be a factor in any issue and try to claim discrimination is rife, is causing misery and that we must make a priority of searching for and rooting out any hint of racism. To me all that does is to open up old wounds which have been slowly healing over the last fifty years. I genuinely wonder why they do it because the evidence I see on the ground is that, for the most part, people in minority groups are not resentful and don't feel oppressed they just want a chance to enjoy their lives. I agree with you that the cause of progression in society is helped if Colston's statue remains because inquisitive children for generations to come will then seek to learn it's history and be able to form their own judgement on it ? There is a school of thought which says the attempted post war destruction of Nazi sites in Germany did more harm than good because younger generations started asking "if this was so bad why are they trying to pretend it never happened, why won't they let us make our own minds up about it ?". And whether we should be allowed to make our own minds up is one of the greatest issues facing us today because IMO there is a tremendous danger now that those with influence, are not using their power wisely. In the Billie Holiday era it was the forces of Conservatism who were telling people in the Southern USA what to think but, fortunately, enough people rejected that instruction, rejected the doctrine of intolerance, thought for themselves, decided discrimination wasn't right and brought about change. Now I feel there has been an about turn and it is the forces of what is loosely called "Liberalism" who are preaching intolerance and instructing people that discrimination and injustice is rife when really it isn't. They are promoting unrest and disharmony when there is no need for it. My hope is that people will be brave enough to make their own minds up about whether racial discrimination today is an issue worth wreaking havoc for or whether it is a type of behaviour limited to a sad and dwindling minority which in a few generations will be largely forgotten about. Let's be frank. I do not accept that you, as a white middle class man, has any perspective as to whether racial discrimination is present or not in the USA. You cannot know. My eldest son lives in Charlotte, NC. Good job,lives in a nice neighborhood etc. Whenever I visit I am struck by the lack of ethnic diversity in that neighborhood. When we visit local restaurants and bars, the same thing. A few years back I attended an open day at the local Elementary School. Sure, there were Afro Americans in attendance,but the overwhelming majority were white. A couple of years ago we drove from Charlotte to Baltimore, stopped off at Charlottesville Va. This town is the home of the University of Virginia a well regarded institution, ranked 28th in the USA. The University was closed in that period but I was taken aback by what appeared to be an overwhelming Afro American presence. But as my son pointed out we were in the downtown area near the University, the white population live in the suburbs. Interesting also that the right wing neo Nazi rally was held there a while ago, a group of utter morons who the delightful Mr Trump defined as "Good People". I did notice, it was hard not to, that in claiming racial harmony in the States and disparaging Barak Obama for arguing otherwise,you make no mention of Mr Trump and his disruptive "Make America Great Again" campaign which is, in the main a "white" construct. When was America ever great when the country practiced Apartheid? How can any country be great when 30% of the population have inadequate or little health insurance cover. How can any country, including the UK, be great when the income distribution curve us so hopelessly skewed towards a minority, a minority that is the most ethnically white monotone group in the country. MLK protested against the lack of human rights, using his religion as a rallying call, which white Christians found hard to argue against ( but they did). He was shot and killed for his trouble. Malcolm X tools more radical approach, he was shot and killed for his trouble. The 1968 Olympians protested on the medals podium, they were ostracised for their troubles. Racial tension and rioting continued into the 1970s. When white university kids protested against war and the forces of conservatism Mr Nixon sent out the national guard and shot them. Kent State May 1970. Rodney King was beaten up in LA by white cops in 1991. And so on to present day. The story has not ended and Obama is quite right to call it out as he sees it. I get the feeling that as a highly articulate, educated black man, he makes the white middle class just a tad uncomfortable.
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Post by swissgas on May 22, 2020 17:17:57 GMT
I take the view that MLK Jnr and others did the hard work and were successful in forcing a seismic change in society which will not be reversed. The priority now, IMO, is to build on those achievements and smooth over the cracks not start the whole battle again. And that's why I'm so surprised people like Barack Obama leap up every time there is a chance that race might be a factor in any issue and try to claim discrimination is rife, is causing misery and that we must make a priority of searching for and rooting out any hint of racism. To me all that does is to open up old wounds which have been slowly healing over the last fifty years. I genuinely wonder why they do it because the evidence I see on the ground is that, for the most part, people in minority groups are not resentful and don't feel oppressed they just want a chance to enjoy their lives. I agree with you that the cause of progression in society is helped if Colston's statue remains because inquisitive children for generations to come will then seek to learn it's history and be able to form their own judgement on it ? There is a school of thought which says the attempted post war destruction of Nazi sites in Germany did more harm than good because younger generations started asking "if this was so bad why are they trying to pretend it never happened, why won't they let us make our own minds up about it ?". And whether we should be allowed to make our own minds up is one of the greatest issues facing us today because IMO there is a tremendous danger now that those with influence, are not using their power wisely. In the Billie Holiday era it was the forces of Conservatism who were telling people in the Southern USA what to think but, fortunately, enough people rejected that instruction, rejected the doctrine of intolerance, thought for themselves, decided discrimination wasn't right and brought about change. Now I feel there has been an about turn and it is the forces of what is loosely called "Liberalism" who are preaching intolerance and instructing people that discrimination and injustice is rife when really it isn't. They are promoting unrest and disharmony when there is no need for it. My hope is that people will be brave enough to make their own minds up about whether racial discrimination today is an issue worth wreaking havoc for or whether it is a type of behaviour limited to a sad and dwindling minority which in a few generations will be largely forgotten about. Let's be frank. I do not accept that you, as a white middle class man, has any perspective as to whether racial discrimination is present or not in the USA. You cannot know. My eldest son lives in Charlotte, NC. Good job,lives in a nice neighborhood etc. Whenever I visit I am struck by the lack of ethnic diversity in that neighborhood. When we visit local restaurants and bars, the same thing. A few years back I attended an open day at the local Elementary School. Sure, there were Afro Americans in attendance,but the overwhelming majority were white. A couple of years ago we drove from Charlotte to Baltimore, stopped off at Charlottesville Va. This town is the home of the University of Virginia a well regarded institution, ranked 28th in the USA. The University was closed in that period but I was taken aback by what appeared to be an overwhelming Afro American presence. But as my son pointed out we were in the downtown area near the University, the white population live in the suburbs. Interesting also that the right wing neo Nazi rally was held there a while ago, a group of utter morons who the delightful Mr Trump defined as "Good People". I did notice, it was hard not to, that in claiming racial harmony in the States and disparaging Barak Obama for arguing otherwise,you make no mention of Mr Trump and his disruptive "Make America Great Again" campaign which is, in the main a "white" construct. When was America ever great when the country practiced Apartheid? How can any country be great when 30% of the population have inadequate or little health insurance cover. How can any country, including the UK, be great when the income distribution curve us so hopelessly skewed towards a minority, a minority that is the most ethnically white monotone group in the country. MLK protested against the lack of human rights, using his religion as a rallying call, which white Christians found hard to argue against ( but they did). He was shot and killed for his trouble. Malcolm X tools more radical approach, he was shot and killed for his trouble. The 1968 Olympians protested on the medals podium, they were ostracised for their troubles. Racial tension and rioting continued into the 1970s. When white university kids protested against war and the forces of conservatism Mr Nixon sent out the national guard and shot them. Kent State May 1970. Rodney King was beaten up in LA by white cops in 1991. And so on to present day. The story has not ended and Obama is quite right to call it out as he sees it. I get the feeling that as a highly articulate, educated black man, he makes the white middle class just a tad uncomfortable. As I said before, I have an involvement in community work aimed at getting under privileged people back into mainstream society and I can tell you the last thing groups working on the front line want is politicians and the media stirring up racial hatred. The argument you are making about the eradication of poverty is one we should all support but I can't see how skin color comes into it ? You say that racial tension and rioting continued into the 1970's which is true and which is a very long time ago. Since then there have been other "ethnic riots", as detailed in a wiki page which gives worldwide information on that subject, but these are virtually all incidents relating to the police and real or suspected crime and not about disparity in wealth. Whichever way society is organized there are going to be disparities in wealth and privilege but surely the aim should be to work to change things so that everyone gets a fair chance. What we see in the US today is the media, together with a group of articulate politicians including Barack Obama, egging people on and encouraging resentment rather than using their power and influence wisely to bring about positive economic change. Of course the mere mention of President Trump leads to a quagmire of polarization. To me his demeanour is usually abhorrent and the number of times he displays a lack of judgement is frightening, but we can't dismiss a man who 63 million Americans voted for despite intense media hostility ? He had to be saying something which resonated strongly with people and, again, the question has to be asked "if he is so much of a fool why don't the media let people make their own minds up about him ?" What are they so frightened of ? Is there a faint chance that some of the things which Trump wants to do in economic terms would actually help under privileged Americans and make society here fairer ? I think that is a possibility.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 18:22:51 GMT
Oh, this is priceless, guess where my Son lives Oldie, in the not so affluent part of Baltimore. That makes me better qualified to comment on this stuff than you.
Admin, I absolutely demand that we get a 'rolling around wetting myself laughing' smiley.
Hey Oldie, this is probably inadmissible for some reason or other, mainly because it proves you wrong I suspect, but I was watching a documentary about gang culture and the differences in 'street life' between US Cities, the film crew travelled all around America speaking to some pretty lively characters, when it got on to the subject of Trump, they all made fun of his appearance but they almost all said that his policies had made them financially better off.
Come on, just give it up, you honestly have no clue what you are talking about, everybody is saying different stuff to you, but you are still the one that's right. Go figure.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 19:00:21 GMT
foolly, you know I love you, but you come across as a bit of a coot when you focus so much on attacking the man not the ball (argument). It's undignified, and beneath you, sir.
Above, are good points and compelling rhetoric from you, Oldie, and Swiss. I love arguments that compel me actually to think, and you've each done so here.
Sadly, I have to read a lot more of your assertions about Oldie. Make your point, man. All this moaning about the opponent just reads like a whine.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 19:31:40 GMT
foolly, you know I love you, but you come across as a bit of a coot when you focus so much on attacking the man not the ball (argument). It's undignified, and beneath you, sir. Above, are good points and compelling rhetoric from you, Oldie, and Swiss. I love arguments that compel me actually to think, and you've each done so here. Sadly, I have to read a lot more of your assertions about Oldie. Make your point, man. All this moaning about the opponent just reads like a whine. Oh, I was trying to respond in the way that he's talked to me across multiple forums over many years. Are you saying that it's rude and unnececerry? Tell you what Shoves, why don't you pick this one up and run with it. As Oldie seems to think that America is such an awful racist place, why would it be that approximately 90,000,000 people there are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Now, he may reply that they are mostly white, but I'll save us all the trouble of going around that pointless circle, India and China are where most US immigrants come from, so here's the question for you to take up with him; why would non-white people even consider moving to this white supremacist racist hell hole where opportunity is driven by skin colour? There's another point as well that he won't like. As he was boasting about the position that his Son holds in a company there, if he honestly believes what he says, then he's endorsing his Son being part of this tyranny, unless of course his Son is working on a non-profit basis, in which case I apologise unreservidly.
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Post by swissgas on May 23, 2020 2:32:07 GMT
Just to back up my earlier post here is an extract from a commentary on a Bureau of Labor Statistics report issued in November 2019.
“ Since the President’s 2016 election, the economy has added over 6.7 million jobs—more than the combined populations of Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Delaware, Rhode Island, and Montana in 2018. Additionally, this total is 4.8 million more jobs than the Congressional Budget Office projected would have been created in its final forecast before the 2016 election.
BLS’s separate household survey finds that the U.S. unemployment rate increased slightly from its 50-year low of 3.5 percent in September to 3.6 percent in October, marking the 20th consecutive month at or below 4 percent unemployment. Most notably, the unemployment rate for African Americans reached a new series low of 5.4 percent, falling 2.6 percentage points since President Trump’s election.”
The point I am trying to make is that you have to create the wealth before it can be spent on addressing the inequality issue which Oldie highlights. And whether you like him or not it is clear that this President’s policies were helping to create wealth before the economy was derailed by the current crisis.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 6:25:54 GMT
Just to back up my earlier post here is an extract from a commentary on a Bureau of Labor Statistics report issued in November 2019. “ Since the President’s 2016 election, the economy has added over 6.7 million jobs—more than the combined populations of Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Delaware, Rhode Island, and Montana in 2018. Additionally, this total is 4.8 million more jobs than the Congressional Budget Office projected would have been created in its final forecast before the 2016 election. BLS’s separate household survey finds that the U.S. unemployment rate increased slightly from its 50-year low of 3.5 percent in September to 3.6 percent in October, marking the 20th consecutive month at or below 4 percent unemployment. Most notably, the unemployment rate for African Americans reached a new series low of 5.4 percent, falling 2.6 percentage points since President Trump’s election.” The point I am trying to make is that you have to create the wealth before it can be spent on addressing the inequality issue which Oldie highlights. And whether you like him or not it is clear that this President’s policies were helping to create wealth before the economy was derailed by the current crisis. Swiss Those stats are true and a matter of public record. But the underlying piece of the jigsaw you have not mentioned is debt. It could be argued that it is a lot easier to inflate (unsustainable) economic growth when $1 trillion is pumped into spending through an increase in Government debt. That is the amount the current administration added to debt between 2017 and 2019. When you look at the causal factors of that debt expansion tax cuts were a prime driver. Now we all love a tax cut, but who were the main beneficiaries? I think you might agree the highest earners received the greatest benefit. And at what cost? Again I think we might agree that health insurance is a major issue in the States, but rather than address the issue Trump's focus was to unravel the effort Obama made to fix this. Now, this year pre pandemic, as debt continued to balloon he proposed $4.8trillion in cuts. These to hit Medicaid, disability benefits and student loans. You know which sections of society those types of cuts hit the most, the same sections that benefitted least from tax cuts. This is exactly the sort of Government policies that excaserbates social tension and breakdown. I guess people like you and I will have to agree to disagree as to whether it's right to raise these issues and whether there is an underlying racist context to policies that adversely affect lower income groups heavily populated by the non white ethnic groups.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 6:52:26 GMT
foolly, you know I love you, but you come across as a bit of a coot when you focus so much on attacking the man not the ball (argument). It's undignified, and beneath you, sir. Above, are good points and compelling rhetoric from you, Oldie, and Swiss. I love arguments that compel me actually to think, and you've each done so here. Sadly, I have to read a lot more of your assertions about Oldie. Make your point, man. All this moaning about the opponent just reads like a whine. Oh, I was trying to respond in the way that he's talked to me across multiple forums over many years. Are you saying that it's rude and unnececerry? Tell you what Shoves, why don't you pick this one up and run with it. As Oldie seems to think that America is such an awful racist place, why would it be that approximately 90,000,000 people there are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Now, he may reply that they are mostly white, but I'll save us all the trouble of going around that pointless circle, India and China are where most US immigrants come from, so here's the question for you to take up with him; why would non-white people even consider moving to this white supremacist racist hell hole where opportunity is driven by skin colour? There's another point as well that he won't like. As he was boasting about the position that his Son holds in a company there, if he honestly believes what he says, then he's endorsing his Son being part of this tyranny, unless of course his Son is working on a non-profit basis, in which case I apologise unreservidly. The ONLY reason I brought my son into the discussion was to be honest about where I acquire some of my more current information. Relevant only because I stopped working there 25 years ago. Some of the things that have come out into the open because of the pandemic are, well I will let you apply your own adjective. He is working with three States and multiple universities to develop and expand their online learning platforms. In schools the biggest issue was viable access. As part of that discussion it emerged 27,000,000 ( yes that's 27 million) kids are on some form of State support ranging from free school meals to health. That in the economy that Swiss contends is doing well. Now that 32,000,000 have lost their jobs, the vast majority also lost whatever health insurance benefits they may have had. The same 32,000,000 applied for unemployment benefits. Some State's administration buckled under this weight of demand after years of paring back on budgets. Michigan completely fell over and could not process the claims.. potentially leaving claimants destitute. His company sent 200 IT/Systems guys up there to sort it, Pro Bono. Not that it is relevant but to respond to your "swipe", no he does not work for a "not for profit" organisation, quite the opposite and he is quite the beneficiary (including of Trump's tax cuts). I have to say though that it betrays a rather narrow mindset to suggest that you have to be poor to recognise fault lines in society, to suggest that to take part in wealth creation ( as Swiss accurately stated) is some form of acquiescence to an obvious wrong doing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 10:54:53 GMT
Oh, I was trying to respond in the way that he's talked to me across multiple forums over many years. Are you saying that it's rude and unnececerry? Tell you what Shoves, why don't you pick this one up and run with it. As Oldie seems to think that America is such an awful racist place, why would it be that approximately 90,000,000 people there are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Now, he may reply that they are mostly white, but I'll save us all the trouble of going around that pointless circle, India and China are where most US immigrants come from, so here's the question for you to take up with him; why would non-white people even consider moving to this white supremacist racist hell hole where opportunity is driven by skin colour? There's another point as well that he won't like. As he was boasting about the position that his Son holds in a company there, if he honestly believes what he says, then he's endorsing his Son being part of this tyranny, unless of course his Son is working on a non-profit basis, in which case I apologise unreservidly. The ONLY reason I brought my son into the discussion was to be honest about where I acquire some of my more current information. Relevant only because I stopped working there 25 years ago. Some of the things that have come out into the open because of the pandemic are, well I will let you apply your own adjective. He is working with three States and multiple universities to develop and expand their online learning platforms. In schools the biggest issue was viable access. As part of that discussion it emerged 27,000,000 ( yes that's 27 million) kids are on some form of State support ranging from free school meals to health. That in the economy that Swiss contends is doing well. Now that 32,000,000 have lost their jobs, the vast majority also lost whatever health insurance benefits they may have had. The same 32,000,000 applied for unemployment benefits. Some State's administration buckled under this weight of demand after years of paring back on budgets. Michigan completely fell over and could not process the claims.. potentially leaving claimants destitute. His company sent 200 IT/Systems guys up there to sort it, Pro Bono. Not that it is relevant but to respond to your "swipe", no he does not work for a "not for profit" organisation, quite the opposite and he is quite the beneficiary (including of Trump's tax cuts). I have to say though that it betrays a rather narrow mindset to suggest that you have to be poor to recognise fault lines in society, to suggest that to take part in wealth creation ( as Swiss accurately stated) is some form of acquiescence to an obvious wrong doing. All I'm doing is exposing that you condemn the system and then are comfortable with firstly you, now your Son earning from it and living a comfortable life from the proceeds. Where would you draw the moral line? Not very narrowly it seems. It's obvious that you wanted Clinton to win, so maybe, like her, you would be happy to accept money from the Duvalier family? Let me ask you a simple question; would you support a UK political party that had the same direct involvement with Haiti that the Democrats have had? Your figures are out of date, the pandemic has now cost around 36,000,000 people their jobs. The lot of the poorest in society is improving under Trump, see my last post. He's slowly repairing the harm and division deliberately created by your side of politics. Now, where are we going to go with this notion that skin colour itself directly affects life chances in the US? The majority of immigrants to America come from China and India, then Mexico, then The Philippines, in 5th place Canada. I guess that there could be some white people coming from those first 4 countries, but it's probably fair to assume that most won't be. Why would these non-white people want to move somewhere that they'll get victimised? There are plenty of other places between China / India and America, are you suggesting that every single one of those countries is even more racist? Also, I think that we can agree that the majority of white people are not racists, so if the US was that bad, why would many thousands of white people every year move there and be part of this dreadful society? Your arguments just don't stand up to any analysis at all. They are nothing more than hysterical left wing red top headlines. Sorry if that's aggressive, or if Shoveler thinks it's some kind of personal attack on you, but facts is facts, and that's not my fault.
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Post by swissgas on May 23, 2020 15:05:42 GMT
Just to back up my earlier post here is an extract from a commentary on a Bureau of Labor Statistics report issued in November 2019. “ Since the President’s 2016 election, the economy has added over 6.7 million jobs—more than the combined populations of Wyoming, Vermont, Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Delaware, Rhode Island, and Montana in 2018. Additionally, this total is 4.8 million more jobs than the Congressional Budget Office projected would have been created in its final forecast before the 2016 election. BLS’s separate household survey finds that the U.S. unemployment rate increased slightly from its 50-year low of 3.5 percent in September to 3.6 percent in October, marking the 20th consecutive month at or below 4 percent unemployment. Most notably, the unemployment rate for African Americans reached a new series low of 5.4 percent, falling 2.6 percentage points since President Trump’s election.” The point I am trying to make is that you have to create the wealth before it can be spent on addressing the inequality issue which Oldie highlights. And whether you like him or not it is clear that this President’s policies were helping to create wealth before the economy was derailed by the current crisis. Swiss Those stats are true and a matter of public record. But the underlying piece of the jigsaw you have not mentioned is debt. It could be argued that it is a lot easier to inflate (unsustainable) economic growth when $1 trillion is pumped into spending through an increase in Government debt. That is the amount the current administration added to debt between 2017 and 2019. When you look at the causal factors of that debt expansion tax cuts were a prime driver. Now we all love a tax cut, but who were the main beneficiaries? I think you might agree the highest earners received the greatest benefit. And at what cost? Again I think we might agree that health insurance is a major issue in the States, but rather than address the issue Trump's focus was to unravel the effort Obama made to fix this. Now, this year pre pandemic, as debt continued to balloon he proposed $4.8trillion in cuts. These to hit Medicaid, disability benefits and student loans. You know which sections of society those types of cuts hit the most, the same sections that benefitted least from tax cuts. This is exactly the sort of Government policies that excaserbates social tension and breakdown. I guess people like you and I will have to agree to disagree as to whether it's right to raise these issues and whether there is an underlying racist context to policies that adversely affect lower income groups heavily populated by the non white ethnic groups. We can agree to disagree but still have a lot of common ground. The debt issue in the US economy is the same as the debt issue at Rovers. Do you spend the money on propping up a failed business model to keep yourself in power or do you invest it to try to change the business model. My companies here have invested heavily in plant and machinery over the past couple of years as have many others and I think one of the reasons for the stock market boom was anticipation of internally generated profits from these investments. The big question though is whether President Trump would have directed some of the wealth created towards solving the problems you mention of welfare dependency and health insurance. What we can say for sure is that successive Democrat and conventional Republican administrations have failed in this respect so maybe a maverick like Trump gave the best chance of changing things. Now we shall probably never know but IMO there is at least a chance he meant what he said and would have done so. In feudal times the ordinary people held the same opinion as those on whom they depended and that was the natural order of things. Gradually the system broke down and ordinary people started to think for themselves and form their own opinions. Possibly the high point of that phenomenon was the time when we were growing up in the 1960’s when many people started to challenge the establishment through satire, student demonstrations, union militancy etc. Since then things have regressed and today less and less people are thinking for themselves and more and more are relying on others to provide them with an opinion. We are going back to holding the opinions that those on whom we depend want us to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 16:52:42 GMT
The ONLY reason I brought my son into the discussion was to be honest about where I acquire some of my more current information. Relevant only because I stopped working there 25 years ago. Some of the things that have come out into the open because of the pandemic are, well I will let you apply your own adjective. He is working with three States and multiple universities to develop and expand their online learning platforms. In schools the biggest issue was viable access. As part of that discussion it emerged 27,000,000 ( yes that's 27 million) kids are on some form of State support ranging from free school meals to health. That in the economy that Swiss contends is doing well. Now that 32,000,000 have lost their jobs, the vast majority also lost whatever health insurance benefits they may have had. The same 32,000,000 applied for unemployment benefits. Some State's administration buckled under this weight of demand after years of paring back on budgets. Michigan completely fell over and could not process the claims.. potentially leaving claimants destitute. His company sent 200 IT/Systems guys up there to sort it, Pro Bono. Not that it is relevant but to respond to your "swipe", no he does not work for a "not for profit" organisation, quite the opposite and he is quite the beneficiary (including of Trump's tax cuts). I have to say though that it betrays a rather narrow mindset to suggest that you have to be poor to recognise fault lines in society, to suggest that to take part in wealth creation ( as Swiss accurately stated) is some form of acquiescence to an obvious wrong doing. All I'm doing is exposing that you condemn the system and then are comfortable with firstly you, now your Son earning from it and living a comfortable life from the proceeds. Where would you draw the moral line? Not very narrowly it seems. It's obvious that you wanted Clinton to win, so maybe, like her, you would be happy to accept money from the Duvalier family? Let me ask you a simple question; would you support a UK political party that had the same direct involvement with Haiti that the Democrats have had? Your figures are out of date, the pandemic has now cost around 36,000,000 people their jobs. The lot of the poorest in society is improving under Trump, see my last post. He's slowly repairing the harm and division deliberately created by your side of politics. Now, where are we going to go with this notion that skin colour itself directly affects life chances in the US? The majority of immigrants to America come from China and India, then Mexico, then The Philippines, in 5th place Canada. I guess that there could be some white people coming from those first 4 countries, but it's probably fair to assume that most won't be. Why would these non-white people want to move somewhere that they'll get victimised? There are plenty of other places between China / India and America, are you suggesting that every single one of those countries is even more racist? Also, I think that we can agree that the majority of white people are not racists, so if the US was that bad, why would many thousands of white people every year move there and be part of this dreadful society? Your arguments just don't stand up to any analysis at all. They are nothing more than hysterical left wing red top headlines. Sorry if that's aggressive, or if Shoveler thinks it's some kind of personal attack on you, but facts is facts, and that's not my fault. Bamber Who said I "condemn the system"? This again is a figment of your unfortunate imagination. I already agreed with Swiss that to distribute wealth it has to be created. Its not the system, its the manager. Your implied charge of hypocrisy is a construct of your own mind to try and justify your point of view. Why not stick to the facts? Here you go again, it appears that you ask a question to thin air, answer it to yourself and then criticise me for the answer you come to? I am not sure that bizarre is a strong enough word to cover that strange degree of lack of mental acuity. By now, I am sure, that even you can see how stupid your comments appear? True, that makes it better then? Thats your opinion based upon I presume the unemployment rate? If you have any other statistics to justify that please clarify. You might want to consider housing provision, education provision, health care provision, social security and income rates. Thats such a simplistic view it barely warrents a response. But I will give my viewpoint Taking the massive (because it has been) illegal wave of Hispanic immigration from South America generally. Are you aware of the violence in Hondruas, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua and Guatemala? The drug related gang violence in Mexico? If your family, including children, lives were in danger, if you had no prospect of a job to support them...you might just conclude that racisim in America is the lesser of two evils. Especially when the farmers in California, to name but one State, will mop up an awful lot of labour to operate their agriculture. India is an interesting question, their educational attainment tends to be higher and their prospects, on average, of securing a decent well paid job at an income far in excess to that they could earn in India, makes America attractive to them based upon that alone. So, in effect its a "brain drain" from a developing country to a developed one that has the demand for their skills. Again, if faced with a much lower income, with poor housing prospects (relatively) and a very socially conservative society then they may well (they do) accept the inherent racism in American Society as a price worth paying. As for China, who wouldn't want to leave there. Hong Kong is "OK" and loads went there or bought property, but the "State" is about to make that place intolerable. Racist countries in Europe on the road west? Lets have a think, Iran, Turkey, Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary, Poland, Austria (in and out)...you get the drift Really? You ever been to Stockton on Tees? Firstly I care little if you attacke me personally, but Shoveler is right to point out that by doing so it dilutes what little view of merit you may hold. The rest is just a rant based upon your own unsubstantiated opinion. Like I said you have been making up an argument with me in your heard, asking a question to open air, answering it to yourself and then arguing with me over the answer YOU gave.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 16:57:02 GMT
Swiss Those stats are true and a matter of public record. But the underlying piece of the jigsaw you have not mentioned is debt. It could be argued that it is a lot easier to inflate (unsustainable) economic growth when $1 trillion is pumped into spending through an increase in Government debt. That is the amount the current administration added to debt between 2017 and 2019. When you look at the causal factors of that debt expansion tax cuts were a prime driver. Now we all love a tax cut, but who were the main beneficiaries? I think you might agree the highest earners received the greatest benefit. And at what cost? Again I think we might agree that health insurance is a major issue in the States, but rather than address the issue Trump's focus was to unravel the effort Obama made to fix this. Now, this year pre pandemic, as debt continued to balloon he proposed $4.8trillion in cuts. These to hit Medicaid, disability benefits and student loans. You know which sections of society those types of cuts hit the most, the same sections that benefitted least from tax cuts. This is exactly the sort of Government policies that excaserbates social tension and breakdown. I guess people like you and I will have to agree to disagree as to whether it's right to raise these issues and whether there is an underlying racist context to policies that adversely affect lower income groups heavily populated by the non white ethnic groups. We can agree to disagree but still have a lot of common ground. The debt issue in the US economy is the same as the debt issue at Rovers. Do you spend the money on propping up a failed business model to keep yourself in power or do you invest it to try to change the business model. My companies here have invested heavily in plant and machinery over the past couple of years as have many others and I think one of the reasons for the stock market boom was anticipation of internally generated profits from these investments. The big question though is whether President Trump would have directed some of the wealth created towards solving the problems you mention of welfare dependency and health insurance. What we can say for sure is that successive Democrat and conventional Republican administrations have failed in this respect so maybe a maverick like Trump gave the best chance of changing things. Now we shall probably never know but IMO there is at least a chance he meant what he said and would have done so. In feudal times the ordinary people held the same opinion as those on whom they depended and that was the natural order of things. Gradually the system broke down and ordinary people started to think for themselves and form their own opinions. Possibly the high point of that phenomenon was the time when we were growing up in the 1960’s when many people started to challenge the establishment through satire, student demonstrations, union militancy etc. Since then things have regressed and today less and less people are thinking for themselves and more and more are relying on others to provide them with an opinion. We are going back to holding the opinions that those on whom we depend want us to. I don't know you Swiss but I can hazard a guess that we might agree on more than we might disagree. In debates like this between us it appears to me its more about method and management than objective. Take care Les
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Post by swissgas on May 23, 2020 17:46:41 GMT
We can agree to disagree but still have a lot of common ground. The debt issue in the US economy is the same as the debt issue at Rovers. Do you spend the money on propping up a failed business model to keep yourself in power or do you invest it to try to change the business model. My companies here have invested heavily in plant and machinery over the past couple of years as have many others and I think one of the reasons for the stock market boom was anticipation of internally generated profits from these investments. The big question though is whether President Trump would have directed some of the wealth created towards solving the problems you mention of welfare dependency and health insurance. What we can say for sure is that successive Democrat and conventional Republican administrations have failed in this respect so maybe a maverick like Trump gave the best chance of changing things. Now we shall probably never know but IMO there is at least a chance he meant what he said and would have done so. In feudal times the ordinary people held the same opinion as those on whom they depended and that was the natural order of things. Gradually the system broke down and ordinary people started to think for themselves and form their own opinions. Possibly the high point of that phenomenon was the time when we were growing up in the 1960’s when many people started to challenge the establishment through satire, student demonstrations, union militancy etc. Since then things have regressed and today less and less people are thinking for themselves and more and more are relying on others to provide them with an opinion. We are going back to holding the opinions that those on whom we depend want us to. I don't know you Swiss but I can hazard a guess that we might agree on more than we might disagree. In debates like this between us it appears to me its more about method and management than objective. Take care Les Yes I’m sure that is the case, but darn you Oldie I wanted to reinforce my point about the mystery of why racism is deliberately being overstated by the media and some of the politicians ! If you follow the mainstream media here (and probably over there) you could easily believe there was a lynch mob on every corner. But when you live here you very rarely see or hear any evidence of really hateful racism. There are jokes of course from and about people of every different race and color both in everyday life and on TV shows like Saturday Night Live or Impractical Jokers. But the impression that society is divided and people of different races and colors hate each other’s is, IMO, false. The stats bear this out as well, in 2018 there were 1.2 million violent crimes in the US of which 7000 were classed as hate crimes. In the same year there were 16000 murders of which 24 (yes 24) were classed as hate crime murders ? But when it comes to opioid addiction, with deaths amounting to 47000 in 2018 coupled with all the associated misery including child abuse and strain on the health services, where are the media ? Perhaps Henbury Gas could tell us if there is a hidden agenda ?
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