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Post by manchestergas on Apr 21, 2020 18:14:17 GMT
I like the Tudor period. Lots of political and social intrigue and over the years it’s become very popular with several very good books and programmes but the Stuarts leave me a bit cold. So many advantages yet somehow the kings all managed to screw it up. UTG! I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 1,421
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Post by trymer on Apr 21, 2020 18:29:09 GMT
Yes agree they viewed themselves to a degree as French, although the nation state of France didn’t really exist. A monarch existed but not really a country it was a series of regions/dukedoms. They spoke French and looked at the world in French, but was there a French nation? Not really nation states are relatively recent creations. Henry II probably exemplified that type of King the best. Yes the normans were originally Norseman but I think William ‘the b******’ was more French than Norse in the end. Of course the Anglo Saxons were German and Danish in origin. The north of England was very Norse. We are a mixture of many nations, Vive le mixed nature of our country! Yes, France only really grew around the 15th century 100 years war when they filled some of the gaps left by England not keeping their lands. The Normans weren’t French really, as you say they were Norsemen, I think their leader was called Rollo or something like that much earlier. I would imagine that the present UK is a complete mixture of so many different invasions or different immigrations and we’re all the stronger for that. Not that it seems to make us any more tolerant of those seeking to do what our forefathers did years ago! Don’t know enough about other countries but I suppose those of mainland Europe must have been open to similar mixes. Poland must be very mixed going back through the centuries. Sweden, Lithuania all had big empires of which Poland was part and of course over the past 250 years they have had pressures from France, Germany and Russia because of their geographical position. I’m sure KP will know far more. Perhaps those at the extreme edges, Norway, Sweden or Portugal may have had less mixing being where they are. Russia is named after the Rus people who were Swedes,they used the great rivers to travel and sailed down the Volga to the Caspian sea to trade. A great part of what is now Sweden belonged to Denmark,King Cnut said that he was King of England,Norway,Denmark and some of the Swedes. The Norwegians and Danes sailed West and had settlements in the Shetlands,Hebrides,Orkneys,Ireland,Iceland and Greenland from where they sailed to America hundreds of years before Colombus.
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Apr 21, 2020 18:36:13 GMT
I like the Tudor period. Lots of political and social intrigue and over the years it’s become very popular with several very good books and programmes but the Stuarts leave me a bit cold. So many advantages yet somehow the kings all managed to screw it up. UTG! I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss. The winners get to write the history books. I doubt if any of the old monarchs methods would compare well with modern practices, but Elizabeth seems to be one ruthless b'stard, yet it was her half sister & predecessor that managed to end up with the sobriquet 'Bloody'. Just to go off on a slight tangent, when I was a child, I seem to remember Victoria was never portrayed in a particularly good light, yet in the past couple of decades, she seems to have been re-invented (on film in particular) as someone very different. Could just be my imagination of course, I should have asked my grandparents who were Victorians as I imagine many other posters grandparents were (this forum seems to be full of 'more senior' people).
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Apr 21, 2020 19:00:28 GMT
I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss. Just to go off on a slight tangent, when I was a child, I seem to remember Victoria was never portrayed in a particularly good light, Things changed mate when DC had a pint in there once, and when Wael was emotionally carried down to that pub! 😁
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warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,421
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 21, 2020 19:35:34 GMT
I like the Tudor period. Lots of political and social intrigue and over the years it’s become very popular with several very good books and programmes but the Stuarts leave me a bit cold. So many advantages yet somehow the kings all managed to screw it up. UTG! I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss. No. I said the Stuart kings did. Sorry for not making it clear. The Tudors were pretty smart and transformed the country. Yes, Wolf Hall was excellent, Cromwell was the ‘common man’ who rose to the top. But they all got their revenge on him not only by getting him the chop but making sure the executioner was drunk. Messy!
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Post by manchestergas on Apr 21, 2020 21:45:13 GMT
I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss. No. I said the Stuart kings did. Sorry for not making it clear. The Tudors were pretty smart and transformed the country. Yes, Wolf Hall was excellent, Cromwell was the ‘common man’ who rose to the top. But they all got their revenge on him not only by getting him the chop but making sure the executioner was drunk. Messy! One of my ancestors was an officer in the Somerset Militia and fought with the Kings Army (James II) at the Battle of Sedgmoor. James II was indeed inept but I suppose have a soft spot for him. I think the Irish call him Seamus A’caca, James the s***head after he did a runner after the Battle of the Boyne. My ancestor’s musket is in Bridgwater Museum or was I understand. he was on the winning side (although James was deposed 3 years later) but doubt he was very popular in the area. Judge Jefferys came with Bloody Assizes. I think a rebel was hung from every tree from Taunton to Bridgwater and rest were shipped off to the West Indies as slaves in the plantations. Their descendants are still there. my dad and mum took me to the re-enactment of the battle back in the 1980s. When the horses charged remember the ground going up and down in the peat down on the moor.
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
Posts: 1,090
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Post by bloogas on Apr 22, 2020 8:35:19 GMT
As "Wolf Hall" and the Tudors have been mentioned, and some of you watched it, I wonder if you noticed - 1) Henry saying to Cromwell in effect that the French King/Emperor could raise money through taxes unhindered. He, Henry, had to do so through Parliament. So he wasn't quite the Absolute monarch one might assume,and we had the beginnings of a democracy, albeit it took another 500 years to include the general population. And before anyone says it, yes, Henry manipulated parliament. 2) I think it was Mantel said that Henry deliberately put 'commoners' like Wolsey and Cromwell into power as he didn't trust his relatives in the nobility. It did start the entry of commoners to positions of power,, albeit once again for Henry's own selfish reasons. 3) Cromwell's wife and two daughters died of the 'Sleeping Sickness', a (it is thought) virus. Symptoms were the shivers, followed by fever, aches and pains, lethargy and breathing problems. Sound familiar? BTW - I'm assuming these are facts, but Mantel seems to have been pretty thorough in her research. After all, my home village of Iron Acton got a mention - Henry and Anne B stayed there once.
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Post by manchestergas on Apr 22, 2020 8:46:29 GMT
Henry VIII was well read and intelligent. Apparently he used to ask two advisors with opposite views to read a book and provide a summary. Maybe we could ask the Supporters Club and Board to do that :-)
Apparently though he went a bit 'odd' after he fell off his horse and was unconsious. In the Wolf Hall draminisation on TV its implied he was out for minutes, but I understand it was hours and there were fears the country would fall into civil war. They said it changed his personality.
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Apr 22, 2020 9:19:57 GMT
I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss. No. I said the Stuart kings did. Sorry for not making it clear. The Tudors were pretty smart and transformed the country. Yes, Wolf Hall was excellent, Cromwell was the ‘common man’ who rose to the top. But they all got their revenge on him not only by getting him the chop but making sure the executioner was drunk. Messy!Luckily for him, he had died some years before his 'execution'! I shall have to try and watch 'Wolf Hall' now I have a bit of time on my hands,
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 22, 2020 10:49:42 GMT
I like the Tudor period. Lots of political and social intrigue and over the years it’s become very popular with several very good books and programmes but the Stuarts leave me a bit cold. So many advantages yet somehow the kings all managed to screw it up. UTG! I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss. Indeed. Elizabeth I oversaw the industrial revolution and was an incredibly intelligent & astute woman. I could really write so much about her and her works. The daughter of Ann Boleyn. It wasn’t her that was feared by catholics but her inner circle. She was betrayed by all of the men she became close to. She really didn’t want to kill Dudley or Raleigh but was left with no choice, given the laws of the land. Lucy Worsley did a superb episode on her and it’s obvious she sympathised with her. I think most would. She never ever got over the execution of Mary, queen of scots and she gave her ample opportunities to escape or just cede to her. It took 7 blows to kill Mary. The other Mary was the one who was known as Bloody Mary and she was hated by most. She persecuted the Protestants in a very violent manner.
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 1,421
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Post by trymer on Apr 22, 2020 11:32:14 GMT
No. I said the Stuart kings did. Sorry for not making it clear. The Tudors were pretty smart and transformed the country. Yes, Wolf Hall was excellent, Cromwell was the ‘common man’ who rose to the top. But they all got their revenge on him not only by getting him the chop but making sure the executioner was drunk. Messy!Luckily for him, he had died some years before his 'execution'! I shall have to try and watch 'Wolf Hall' now I have a bit of time on my hands, Oliver Cromwell was posthumously 'executed',Thomas was still alive...until he was chopped.
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Apr 22, 2020 11:33:28 GMT
Luckily for him, he had died some years before his 'execution'! I shall have to try and watch 'Wolf Hall' now I have a bit of time on my hands, Oliver Cromwell was posthumously 'executed',Thomas was still alive...until he was chopped. Ah I see- I was on the wrong page again!
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,109
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 22, 2020 11:56:32 GMT
As "Wolf Hall" and the Tudors have been mentioned, and some of you watched it, I wonder if you noticed - 1) Henry saying to Cromwell in effect that the French King/Emperor could raise money through taxes unhindered. He, Henry, had to do so through Parliament. So he wasn't quite the Absolute monarch one might assume,and we had the beginnings of a democracy, albeit it took another 500 years to include the general population. And before anyone says it, yes, Henry manipulated parliament. 2) I think it was Mantel said that Henry deliberately put 'commoners' like Wolsey and Cromwell into power as he didn't trust his relatives in the nobility. It did start the entry of commoners to positions of power,, albeit once again for Henry's own selfish reasons. 3) Cromwell's wife and two daughters died of the 'Sleeping Sickness', a (it is thought) virus. Symptoms were the shivers, followed by fever, aches and pains, lethargy and breathing problems. Sound familiar? BTW - I'm assuming these are facts, but Mantel seems to have been pretty thorough in her research. After all, my home village of Iron Acton got a mention - Henry and Anne B stayed there once. And William of Orange allegedly stayed at The Lamb. Not sure if he was there for Brendan's Friday evening happy hours though...
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warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,421
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 22, 2020 14:00:39 GMT
I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss. Indeed. Elizabeth I oversaw the industrial revolution and was an incredibly intelligent & astute woman. I could really write so much about her and her works. The daughter of Ann Boleyn. It wasn’t her that was feared by catholics but her inner circle. She was betrayed by all of the men she became close to. She really didn’t want to kill Dudley or Raleigh but was left with no choice, given the laws of the land. Lucy Worsley did a superb episode on her and it’s obvious she sympathised with her. I think most would. She never ever got over the execution of Mary, queen of scots and she gave her ample opportunities to escape or just cede to her. It took 7 blows to kill Mary. The other Mary was the one who was known as Bloody Mary and she was hated by most. She persecuted the Protestants in a very violent manner. Yes KP Elizabeth was a very astute Queen and woman, to survive then I suspect they needed to be. Mary, Q of S, was a tragic figure and was let down by the various men in her life. A few months ago I read a biography of Mary I, Bloody Mary. Again, the biographer was fairly sympathetic but portrayed a figure who had a tragic life. Her childhood as daughter of Katherine of Aragon was pretty unhappy and she was badly treated by Henry VIII, her father. Then she was treated by the Protectorate surrounding Edward VI very badly and just about escaped imprisonment. After reading it I had a far greater understanding of her reign. And of course her nickname Bloody Mary was given to her by her sister’s advisors, the Protestants. And in the end more Catholic’s were tortured and persecuted by Elizabeth and her people than Protestants who died under Mary but of course the Elizabethans were never going to publicise that. The victorious usually write the history so it’s good to search a bit deeper. As for Sir Walter Raleigh I’m pretty sure James I executed him in 1604/05 or thereabouts, not Elizabeth. It was a fascinating period of British history and the Tudor’s truly left their mark. UTG!
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 22, 2020 14:25:19 GMT
I noticed you state the Tudor Kings messed things up. I have always been a fan of Queen Elisabeth, one of two Tudor Queens. Very very intelligent woman and the standing of England advanced under her (not so popular with the Catholics). I think she could speak about 7 languages fluently, and used to do mind puzzles for fun. Played a very intelligent diplomatic game. Also understood modern PR! The 'Wolf Hall' series was on BBC4 last week, very interesting. Thomas Cromwell very interesting 'common man' who rose to the top (and then fell). Not sure I would want Henry VIII as my boss. No. I said the Stuart kings did. Sorry for not making it clear. The Tudors were pretty smart and transformed the country. Yes, Wolf Hall was excellent, Cromwell was the ‘common man’ who rose to the top. But they all got their revenge on him not only by getting him the chop but making sure the executioner was drunk. Messy! His predecessor , Thomas Wolsey, wasn’t treated much better but at least he died in the journey to get the chop. Both men were so loyal to Henry VIII too
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dido
Predictions League
Peter Aitken
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,883
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Post by dido on Apr 22, 2020 15:11:05 GMT
Oliver Cromwell was posthumously 'executed',Thomas was still alive...until he was chopped. Ah I see- I was on the wrong page again! Wrong page? Wrong chuffing book, Rex, by the look of it!
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 22, 2020 15:22:02 GMT
Ah I see- I was on the wrong page again! Wrong page? Wrong chuffing book, Rex, by the look of it! 😂👀. Maybe get back to ⚽️, if there was any
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 22, 2020 15:24:41 GMT
Henry VIII was well read and intelligent. Apparently he used to ask two advisors with opposite views to read a book and provide a summary. Maybe we could ask the Supporters Club and Board to do that :-) Apparently though he went a bit 'odd' after he fell off his horse and was unconsious. In the Wolf Hall draminisation on TV its implied he was out for minutes, but I understand it was hours and there were fears the country would fall into civil war. They said it changed his personality. It is widely reported that he wrote the piece greenslieves (sp) and it’s fact that he added the last part of the Lord’s Prayer where it starts, for thine is the kingdom. us Caf licks don’t say that bit
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 22, 2020 15:31:07 GMT
Yes, France only really grew around the 15th century 100 years war when they filled some of the gaps left by England not keeping their lands. The Normans weren’t French really, as you say they were Norsemen, I think their leader was called Rollo or something like that much earlier. I would imagine that the present UK is a complete mixture of so many different invasions or different immigrations and we’re all the stronger for that. Not that it seems to make us any more tolerant of those seeking to do what our forefathers did years ago! Don’t know enough about other countries but I suppose those of mainland Europe must have been open to similar mixes. Poland must be very mixed going back through the centuries. Sweden, Lithuania all had big empires of which Poland was part and of course over the past 250 years they have had pressures from France, Germany and Russia because of their geographical position. I’m sure KP will know far more. Perhaps those at the extreme edges, Norway, Sweden or Portugal may have had less mixing being where they are. Russia is named after the Rus people who were Swedes,they used the great rivers to travel and sailed down the Volga to the Caspian sea to trade. A great part of what is now Sweden belonged to Denmark,King Cnut said that he was King of England,Norway,Denmark and some of the Swedes. The Norwegians and Danes sailed West and had settlements in the Shetlands,Hebrides,Orkneys,Ireland,Iceland and Greenland from where they sailed to America hundreds of years before Colombus. 3 of the countries, one being an empire, were also named after 3 brothers. Rus, chech and lech. I remember dad telling me this and thought it was made up but it’s true. Ruslan, czechslaw and lechslaw were the kings 3 sons and it’s mentioned in the thousand years of Poland book a thousand years of Poland. Lechistan was the name of what became Poland
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 22, 2020 15:35:56 GMT
Indeed. Elizabeth I oversaw the industrial revolution and was an incredibly intelligent & astute woman. I could really write so much about her and her works. The daughter of Ann Boleyn. It wasn’t her that was feared by catholics but her inner circle. She was betrayed by all of the men she became close to. She really didn’t want to kill Dudley or Raleigh but was left with no choice, given the laws of the land. Lucy Worsley did a superb episode on her and it’s obvious she sympathised with her. I think most would. She never ever got over the execution of Mary, queen of scots and she gave her ample opportunities to escape or just cede to her. It took 7 blows to kill Mary. The other Mary was the one who was known as Bloody Mary and she was hated by most. She persecuted the Protestants in a very violent manner. Yes KP Elizabeth was a very astute Queen and woman, to survive then I suspect they needed to be. Mary, Q of S, was a tragic figure and was let down by the various men in her life. A few months ago I read a biography of Mary I, Bloody Mary. Again, the biographer was fairly sympathetic but portrayed a figure who had a tragic life. Her childhood as daughter of Katherine of Aragon was pretty unhappy and she was badly treated by Henry VIII, her father. Then she was treated by the Protectorate surrounding Edward VI very badly and just about escaped imprisonment. After reading it I had a far greater understanding of her reign. And of course her nickname Bloody Mary was given to her by her sister’s advisors, the Protestants. And in the end more Catholic’s were tortured and persecuted by Elizabeth and her people than Protestants who died under Mary but of course the Elizabethans were never going to publicise that. The victorious usually write the history so it’s good to search a bit deeper. As for Sir Walter Raleigh I’m pretty sure James I executed him in 1604/05 or thereabouts, not Elizabeth. It was a fascinating period of British history and the Tudor’s truly left their mark. UTG! Nice one, I would have put money on it being that he was executed by Lizzy. Thanks for that
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