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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 14:49:18 GMT
Not really, it's the same forces that mean that large companies don't actually pay tax. In UK terms, if corporation tax is increased you know as well as I do that's recovered elsewhere, either in real terms wage reduction, 'efficiency' savings, price increases etc. This is how the free market operates. But the good news is there's an alternative, you can always move away from a society that places you in wealth terms probably the top 1 tenth of a % of the top 1 per-cent of all of the people who have ever lived on earth, and set up home in Laos or Cuba, you'll get some proper 'wealth redistribution' there. Let us know how that plays out for you. That's a bit childish, and does nothing to address the very real issues of a badly skewed income distribution curve and the chronic underfunding of our public services. The second bit was written because trying to discuss economics seriously with a Laffer denier is just casting pearls before swine, the first bit is true, we are incredibly lucky and privileged to live in this time, in this society, and large businesses always do everything in their power to protect their bottom line, if that gets eroded they'll look at options to build it again, and community / charity work is almost exclusively driven by the benefits gained from the positive PR that it generates. With the NHS, in terms of funding, it will swallow as much as is thrown at it. Do we have a badly skewed income distribution curve, or do we live in a meritocracy? Anyway, this is an odd argument for you to put forward, you're in favour of the free movement of labour across the EU, that's resulted in an influx of unskilled / low skilled labour and forced UK wages down.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 15:03:00 GMT
That's a bit childish, and does nothing to address the very real issues of a badly skewed income distribution curve and the chronic underfunding of our public services.Luckily that's all been sorted now by the nation clapping once a week. Indeed. I actually refuse to pander to that nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 15:07:52 GMT
That's a bit childish, and does nothing to address the very real issues of a badly skewed income distribution curve and the chronic underfunding of our public services. The second bit was written because trying to discuss economics seriously with a Laffer denier is just casting pearls before swine, the first bit is true, we are incredibly lucky and privileged to live in this time, in this society, and large businesses always do everything in their power to protect their bottom line, if that gets eroded they'll look at options to build it again, and community / charity work is almost exclusively driven by the benefits gained from the positive PR that it generates. With the NHS, in terms of funding, it will swallow as much as is thrown at it. Do we have a badly skewed income distribution curve, or do we live in a meritocracy? Anyway, this is an odd argument for you to put forward, you're in favour of the free movement of labour across the EU, that's resulted in an influx of unskilled / low skilled labour and forced UK wages down. I think we have been here before. Unlike you I do believe in a free market. A free market for capital AND labour. One without the other results in the imposition of one. The NHS argument that it will just swallow what we throw at it is the result of not having a grown up debate about what our expectations are of the service we expect it to provide.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 15:45:51 GMT
The second bit was written because trying to discuss economics seriously with a Laffer denier is just casting pearls before swine, the first bit is true, we are incredibly lucky and privileged to live in this time, in this society, and large businesses always do everything in their power to protect their bottom line, if that gets eroded they'll look at options to build it again, and community / charity work is almost exclusively driven by the benefits gained from the positive PR that it generates. With the NHS, in terms of funding, it will swallow as much as is thrown at it. Do we have a badly skewed income distribution curve, or do we live in a meritocracy? Anyway, this is an odd argument for you to put forward, you're in favour of the free movement of labour across the EU, that's resulted in an influx of unskilled / low skilled labour and forced UK wages down. I think we have been here before. Unlike you I do believe in a free market. A free market for capital AND labour. One without the other results in the imposition of one. The NHS argument that it will just swallow what we throw at it is the result of not having a grown up debate about what our expectations are of the service we expect it to provide. No, you don't believe in a free market, you want an EU closed shop, with special privileges for white western Europeans and punitive trade tariffs placed on goods and services from other countries. That's not a free market, that's just a racket, a racist cartel. No issue having a discussion about NHS funding. I'll get us started. For me, the number 1 priority, once we are over this crisis, should be educating people to look after themselves. Talk to anybody on the front line of delivering health care and they'll tell you that type 2 diabetes is a massive drain on resources, not big, huge, if we could get people to eat responsibly, stop drinking so much, stop smoking and get more active, we would free up 10% of the entire NHS budget. Just spending more isn't the answer. Just had a thought, you know how slippery all politicians are, I wonder if the Tory's will count these field hospitals towards the total that they pledged to build?
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Post by swissgas on Apr 12, 2020 16:24:01 GMT
Yes, my take on this is that Wael is arranging for cash to flow into Dwane Sports Jersey account and then onwards to Rovers credit line which now exceeds the value of the Mem by a substantial amount. In effect Wael is sacrificing some of his and perhaps another member of his family’s personal wealth to keep Rovers going because there is little chance the full amount of the loan and accrued interest will ever be repaid. But before we say “three cheers for Wael” we must ask ourselves whether any good is likely to come out of a situation where someone is prejudicing the wellbeing of their immediate family because of an infatuation with a football club. And whether we think Wael has the ability to either reduce losses to a level he can personally sustain or to find someone else who will join with him to provide funds to keep the club in existence ? Thanks Swiss. I'm genuinely surprised that "the family" are allowing an extension to the credit facility. Making unsecured loans to 3rd tier football Clubs making annual losses of £3-4mil goes against any business logic. Even slashing costs/the wage bill - they're still looking at losses £1m+ a year. Given the performance of Dwane Sports over the last 4 years - I just don't see how they can ever turn this into a profitable business. It's a money pit and they don't have unlimited funds. Bonkers. When it comes to the CV19 pandemic I can understand a reluctance to debate what might happen and a tendency to try to put it to the back of ones mind to avoid increasing fear and anxiety. But when it comes to discussing the consequences of Rovers disastrous financial performance I don’t know why fans shy away from the issue because we all have a vested interest in the club BUT it’s not a matter which should affect our health. In Nick Higgs time I can remember when he said “I didn’t see that coming” and someone responded astutely with “you didn’t look”. And that is the problem when you bury your head in the sand you don’t see the disaster coming so you aren’t in a position to either head it off or solve it when it happens. We could see the problems coming then and we can see them now in fact Nick’s changing face told the story then and, as KP has pointed out on the other forum, Wael’s is showing the same signs now. It is tragic that people who’s genuine motivation was to do good for a football club should end up by getting themselves in a situation like this. Try as I might I cannot see any other solution than a completely fresh start but it would be great if other fans could put forward their own ideas on this. And when thinking back to 2016 and what happened then there may be a parallel which we should look out for. It was widely reported that Nick wanted to stay on with a minority stake in the club but Geoff Dunford insisted “we all sell or I won’t” which would have scuppered the deal. There may have been a perception then that Geoff was being vindictive, and maybe he was, but it might also be possible that Geoff in his wisdom foresaw that having Nick on board and not allowing the Al Qadi family a free hand and a truly fresh start would hinder the chances of Rovers achieving success and so he did what he did in what he thought was the club’s best interests. If it does come to a fresh start, IMO, it would be a disaster for Wael to play any part in a newly launched BRFC and if he tries to I am afraid the consequences could be fatal. Why even think of this now ? Because it’s better to be prepared.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 12, 2020 16:44:09 GMT
Bambi, you can pick apart Vertigos posts all you like, but his main points are blindingly obvious and you know it. 1. It is unfair just to pick on rich footballers when there are other people just as wealthy about. 2. The government has put in place a scheme to help companies through the current crisis and why shouldn't Rovers, being a company who are undoubtedly in a bit of a pickle, take advantage of that scheme. Both those broadish points are something that anyone- even you- should be able to , broadly, agree or disagree with. Blimey Rex now you’re starting to use common sense. Not sure some are ready for that. Btw I don’t know why I’m agreeing with you when you tried to get me kicked off this forum! 😉 (Should have been in Taunton today v Warwickshire) Hope you’re staying safe! UTG!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 17:41:04 GMT
you want an EU closed shop, with special privileges for white western Europeans... that's just a racket, a racist cartel... Oh Bambi.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 17:49:51 GMT
you want an EU closed shop, with special privileges for white western Europeans... that's just a racket, a racist cartel... Oh Bambi. Your right, western European countries are predominantly white, not exclusively. Care to defend the racist elements of EU policy? Go on, give it your best shot. Remember Shoves, these facts don't care about your emotions.
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Apr 12, 2020 18:56:27 GMT
Your right, western European countries are predominantly white, not exclusively. Care to defend the racist elements of EU policy? Go on, give it your best shot.Remember Shoves, these facts don't care about your emotions. If you tell me what they are, I'll give it a go.
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Apr 12, 2020 18:59:03 GMT
Bambi, you can pick apart Vertigos posts all you like, but his main points are blindingly obvious and you know it. 1. It is unfair just to pick on rich footballers when there are other people just as wealthy about. 2. The government has put in place a scheme to help companies through the current crisis and why shouldn't Rovers, being a company who are undoubtedly in a bit of a pickle, take advantage of that scheme. Both those broadish points are something that anyone- even you- should be able to , broadly, agree or disagree with. Blimey Rex now you’re starting to use common sense. Not sure some are ready for that. Btw I don’t know why I’m agreeing with you when you tried to get me kicked off this forum! 😉 (Should have been in Taunton today v Warwickshire) Hope you’re staying safe! UTG! I don't think you should be kicked off, just banned from posting during the cricket season As it appears there won't be a cricket season this year, you may be getting a reprieve
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 19:49:00 GMT
Oh, Bambi, really. Your right, western European countries are predominantly white, not exclusively. You're. Care to defend the racist elements of EU policy? Nobody's actually asserted any yet. Not like you to call racism without specifying the racist act. Go on, give it your best shot. Ooh, so you can shoot me down again? Nah, you're alright. Also, I have no idea what your point is. Remember Shoves, these facts don't care about your emotions. It's Facts Don't Care About Feelings, surely? While I cannot disagree with the phrase 'facts don't care about feelings', it seems to have no relevance here. You can quote ill-informed alt-right cliché at me all night. But 'facts don't care about feelings' rather obliges you to provide some facts. You haven't, you've just regurgitated some pseudo-intellectual drivel. You've given us no assertion, argument, or evidence with which to engage. Happy to participate when you write anything meaningful.
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Post by swissgas on Apr 12, 2020 19:53:27 GMT
A gin and orange, a lemon squash and a scotch and water please.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 20:33:19 GMT
Your right, western European countries are predominantly white, not exclusively. Care to defend the racist elements of EU policy? Go on, give it your best shot.Remember Shoves, these facts don't care about your emotions. If you tell me what they are, I'll give it a go. This will be interesting
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 20:42:57 GMT
Oh, Bambi, really. Your right, western European countries are predominantly white, not exclusively. You're. Care to defend the racist elements of EU policy? Nobody's actually asserted any yet. Not like you to call racism without specifying the racist act. Go on, give it your best shot. Ooh, so you can shoot me down again? Nah, you're alright. Also, I have no idea what your point is. Remember Shoves, these facts don't care about your emotions. It's Facts Don't Care About Feelings, surely? While I cannot disagree with the phrase 'facts don't care about geelings', it seems to have no relevance here. You can quote ill-informed alt-right cliché at me all night. But 'facts don't care about feelings' rather obliges you to provide some facts. You haven't, you've just regurgitated some pseudo-intellectual drivel. You've given us no assertion, argument, or evidence with which to engage. Happy to participate when you write anything meaningful. As I said to Vertigo yesterday, nobody is perfect with spelling, punctuation etc. The discrimination is identified above, take another look. But then on a local level, I'm guessing you've forgotten our MEP who was asked if he was a cleaner, or the one asked if he was 'lost' at their building in Strasbourg. Maybe not the most terrible crimes in themselves, but the demographic of the chamber speaks volumes about the place. At least looking at the UKIP benches, the people I saw there were broadly in line with the people I see walking around the streets. In fact, here you go, watch the little video on this page and see if you think it's representative of a multi-cultural society. Of course, I'm for equality of opportunity, not of outcome, but it's almost exclusively white, that doesn't look right to me, what do you think leads to that? www.businessinsider.com/video-european-parliament-sings-auld-lang-syne-after-approving-brexit-2020-1?r=US&IR=TI first heard that from Shapiro, thought about quoting him directly, but as you're not a fan... BTW, what's a ''geeling''?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 21:05:02 GMT
I'm still waiting for racist elements of E.U. policy, but since Rex volunteered to debate them, I'll leave him to do so first when you ever identify them.
You've instead suggested that a lot of European people are racist towards black folk. I'm certain this is true. Many European countries have visible and audible racist behaviour in their football stadia more often than we do, although we're far from perfect there. Were I H.sapiens, I think I'd rather have black skin in most of Britain than most of Europe, though.
So some of Europe is more racist than some of Britain.
Racist elements of E.U. policy, when you're ready.
Sorry for the geeling/feeling typo; 'f' and 'g' are adjacent keys, and I failed to notice it. If you knew the trouble I have operating a touch screen phone with a damned wing, you'd have let me off that one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 22:28:29 GMT
I'm still waiting for racist elements of E.U. policy, but since Rex volunteered to debate them, I'll leave him to do so first when you ever identify them. You've instead suggested that a lot of European people are racist towards black folk. I'm certain this is true. Many European countries have visible and audible racist behaviour in their football stadia more often than we do, although we're far from perfect there. Were I H.sapiens, I think I'd rather have black skin in most of Britain than most of Europe, though. So some of Europe is more racist than some of Britain. Racist elements of E.U. policy, when you're ready. Sorry for the geeling/feeling typo; 'f' and 'g' are adjacent keys, and I failed to notice it. If you knew the trouble I have operating a touch screen phone with a damned wing, you'd have let me off that one. Well, it was you who got all twitchy over 're. Preferential treatment in terms of employment and movement for people from member states is a good one. You could argue that it's the duty of government to protect the interests of their citizens over and above foreign nationals, but the EU weren't our government and their policies in that area had a detrimental affect on our economy and ability to function efficiently. Happily for us, the British people voted to distance ourselves from it for this and a number of other reasons. How's that? Now, let's look again at that almost all white EU parliament, that tells me that people who aren't white are disenfranchised from the process at some level. If they sit there, don't recognise that and / or don't act on it then that troubles me, and I'm surprised that you have such a laissez-faire attitude to it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 11:12:46 GMT
Bamber, me old mucker Indeed the EU Parliament and Commission were not our Government, however our duly elected sovereign Government chose to sign a treaty with the EU and brought onto our statute book rules and regulations, particularly those of the single market (most of which we, the UK, were instrumental in drafting). We could have voted out the party that did that, we could have voted in a party that would rescind and withdraw, we never did. You cannot say that "the policies in that area had a detrimental affect on our economy" without stating exactly how that was proven to be the case. Not just your opinion, but hard empirical evidence.
The people did indeed vote to withdraw, something which we have to honour. I have however never, ever, read a considered and logical argument for why they did. For those of us who would rather make decisions based upon a logical argument itself based upon current empirical evidence, this is tough and hard to swallow. But we all have to accept that on occasion the population votes like sheep, following the latest headline, almost always based upon misinformation and lies.
Look at Trump and the USA.
In the meantime, back at the foodbanks, a crumbling of our public services and a doubling of our national debt from 2010 to 2019, lets all blame the EU. That will do it. Where's me flag, I feel all national pride and that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2020 11:46:19 GMT
Bamber, me old mucker Indeed the EU Parliament and Commission were not our Government, however our duly elected sovereign Government chose to sign a treaty with the EU and brought onto our statute book rules and regulations, particularly those of the single market (most of which we, the UK, were instrumental in drafting). We could have voted out the party that did that, we could have voted in a party that would rescind and withdraw, we never did. You cannot say that "the policies in that area had a detrimental affect on our economy" without stating exactly how that was proven to be the case. Not just your opinion, but hard empirical evidence. The people did indeed vote to withdraw, something which we have to honour. I have however never, ever, read a considered and logical argument for why they did. For those of us who would rather make decisions based upon a logical argument itself based upon current empirical evidence, this is tough and hard to swallow. But we all have to accept that on occasion the population votes like sheep, following the latest headline, almost always based upon misinformation and lies. Look at Trump and the USA. In the meantime, back at the foodbanks, a crumbling of our public services and a doubling of our national debt from 2010 to 2019, lets all blame the EU. That will do it. Where's me flag, I feel all national pride and that. Can you remind me of the date of the referendum for Maastricht please, I must have missed that one. Stepping backwards, take a look at the drain on the NHS of just type 2 diabetes, it's frightening in monetary terms and the number of people it's affecting. I think you need to do some research around how the EU operates and whether MEPs can actually form or change policy. When you've found out that they can't, you can come back and we can have a proper discussion about how it's run and why no democracy should align itself with the institution in its present form. BTW, did you enjoy that chamber full of faces that represent their communities? If the people at the top table look out across that every day and it doesn't at least spark a question in their minds, I think that says something rather sinister about them. Do you not think it possible that having punitive trade barriers with the parts of the global economy that haven't been bankrupt for the last 10 years may have held us back, just a tiny bit? This is where you are blinded by your presupposition that the EU is good, in terms of trade it's simply not. If you like, via PM I'll tell you how it's nonsensical regulations scuppered one of my businesses and cost about 20 people in Bristol their jobs. Nobody gained anything from the regulations, nobody ever will, but they changed a perfectly good little business into something that just didn't work any more. No lies, no misinformation, no pub talk, no text books, just facts. Shall we do it?
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 13, 2020 12:00:54 GMT
I don't disagree with you Oldie (as I've mentioned before). As for 'picking' on footballers / football Clubs. Two separate issues really. I'll have a go at the former. Premiership Footballers vs Investment Bankers (this should stir things up a bit). Footballers... Frankly? 1. I don't think it's productive to "pick out" specific income groups.2. I would suggest it would be more productive to decide on the public services we value, budget for a cost that ensures the quality of service we want and then tell people what that they have to pay through taxes.To enable this I would hypothecate the tax as a fixed % of income. The arguments over "how much" people earn is not appropriate in a political debate, but what is appropriate is minimum incomes as a % of GDP. 1. It makes me feel better. 2. Everyone wants more funding for the NHS, the Police, Schools, increased Welfare benefits for the genuinely needy etc etc. The problem is it will cost a gizzillion pounds and the money has to be found somewhere. Sadly parties don't get voted in to Government if they suggest higher taxes, so they lie about what can be provided. I actually think some form of Unity Government and generally higher taxes (so people can't do political points scoring) is potentially a way forward. You can't impose super-tax levels on "the rich" because they will either find a way to avoid paying it "It's tax efficiency your honour, not tax avoidance", or de-camp to a friendlier tax regime. So effectively you have to tax everyone. Everyone still have their hand in the air for that? Oh - just up for the clapping then? Jolly good. Oh - and one of the problems with Unity Government is what people do you invite in from the opposition parties? Bring back Diane Abbott. I could do with a good laugh.
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 14, 2020 10:21:02 GMT
I'm still waiting for racist elements of E.U. policy, but since Rex volunteered to debate them, I'll leave him to do so first when you ever identify them. You've instead suggested that a lot of European people are racist towards black folk. I'm certain this is true. Many European countries have visible and audible racist behaviour in their football stadia more often than we do, although we're far from perfect there. Were I H.sapiens, I think I'd rather have black skin in most of Britain than most of Europe, though. So some of Europe is more racist than some of Britain. Racist elements of E.U. policy, when you're ready. Sorry for the geeling/feeling typo; 'f' and 'g' are adjacent keys, and I failed to notice it. If you knew the trouble I have operating a touch screen phone with a damned wing, you'd have let me off that one. I can only speak of the two countries I’ve been to, Poland and Russia, both are very racist and it’s extremely rare to see a black or brown face anywhere. There is a video, on YouTube that shows and Indian family being beaten up very badly because they dared to go to a football match. I know many of my fathers generation who held extremely prejudiced views about the Jews too. It’s a strange one as Poland has an indigenous population of Moslems and they settled there from circa 16th century BUT they are highly patriotic and so are not seen as a threat and their mosques have not been touched. Not long back and on news night, they tried to make the Polish premier feel ashamed because they said they would not take one refugee but the guy said this is what we got elected on and we are doing as we have promised. I am a member of a couple of Polish Facebook groups and I know that they do not feel embarrassed by this and they endorse the old ways, even now.
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