eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 14, 2020 20:02:56 GMT
I'd just love Premiership/Championship footballers salaries to collapse to more sustainable levels. OK - the "top 6" can probably justify it, but everyone else is screwed as they try and compete for the next tier of decent players just to stay in the Premier League. Hyper-inflation in Premier League wages has fed inflation lower down the leagues. We pay Kyle Bennett £4k a week FFS! Lunacy. Now I know effectively that is BRFC's 'choice'. If we did not offer competitive wages we would sink down the leagues and there would be lots and lots of unhappy fans. Speaking for myself - I'd actually be happy to see us in the lower leagues with a sustainable model, and build from there. But that's just me. Which lower leagues are you on about? You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. How many relegations are you happy with? Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? 1. Which lower leagues are you on about? In terms of "inflation lower down the leagues" - anything below tier 2. Your question could refer to two other statements I made though. Sadly I'm not a mind reader. 2. You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. Nope - I don't understand what you are trying to say. 3. How many relegations are you happy with? You mean how many relegations would I be happy with? Well none. But realistically, if Rovers are to survive in the currently unsustainable paradigm, then I guess tier 4 is inevitable. I believe we could survive there and not lose money year on year if we can keep our gates above say 6,500k-7k. 4. Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? OK - I tried that in google translate but it didn't really help. I guess your question is along the lines of "Am I happy with the current model employed by our manager (and effectively our owners) that relies heavily on investment in youth and bringing those players into the first team squad?" Well I don't think we have any choice because we cannot compete in the transfer market. Will it succeed? Given our non-existent training facility and little hope of a new stadium, I think it's unlikely we would be an attractive option to the next footballing wunderkind. We won't be pushing anywhere near the top of tier 3 and we'll be more likely to be struggling against relegation to tier 4 for the foreseeable future. IMHO. I hope that answers your questions. As ever, it's been a pleasure.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 14, 2020 20:04:41 GMT
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 14, 2020 20:15:27 GMT
Which lower leagues are you on about? You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. How many relegations are you happy with? Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? 1. Which lower leagues are you on about? In terms of "inflation lower down the leagues" - anything below tier 2. Your question could refer to two other statements I made though. Sadly I'm not a mind reader. 2. You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. Nope - I don't understand what you are trying to say. 3. How many relegations are you happy with? You mean how many relegations would I be happy with? Well none. But realistically, if Rovers are to survive in the currently unsustainable paradigm, then I guess tier 4 is inevitable. I believe we could survive there and not lose money year on year if we can keep our gates above say 6,500k-7k. 4. Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? OK - I tried that in google translate but it didn't really help. I guess your question is along the lines of "Am I happy with the current model employed by our manager (and effectively our owners) that relies heavily on investment in youth and bringing those players into the first team squad?" Well I don't think we have any choice because we cannot compete in the transfer market. Will it succeed? Given our non-existent training facility and little hope of a new stadium, I think it's unlikely we would be an attractive option to the next footballing wunderkind. We won't be pushing anywhere near the top of tier 3 and we'll be more likely to be struggling against relegation to tier 4 for the foreseeable future. IMHO. I hope that answers your questions. As ever, it's been a pleasure. To cut to the main point, if I understand it correctly: I wouldn’t be happy with any relegation but we can’t just ignore £24m of debt (or whatever it is give or take a few millions). And I would be happier if we were living within our means even if it meant division 4 (league 2) football. The alternative might be no BRFC or an AFC BRFC in the Southern League. And as to using cheaper younger players, perhaps not perfect but at least I can see some kind of plan, even joined up thinking, and with our debt perhaps not surprising. UTG!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 20:26:52 GMT
Which lower leagues are you on about? You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. How many relegations are you happy with? Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? 1. Which lower leagues are you on about? In terms of "inflation lower down the leagues" - anything below tier 2. Your question could refer to two other statements I made though. Sadly I'm not a mind reader. 2. You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. Nope - I don't understand what you are trying to say. 3. How many relegations are you happy with? You mean how many relegations would I be happy with? Well none. But realistically, if Rovers are to survive in the currently unsustainable paradigm, then I guess tier 4 is inevitable. I believe we could survive there and not lose money year on year if we can keep our gates above say 6,500k-7k. 4. Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? OK - I tried that in google translate but it didn't really help. I guess your question is along the lines of "Am I happy with the current model employed by our manager (and effectively our owners) that relies heavily on investment in youth and bringing those players into the first team squad?" Well I don't think we have any choice because we cannot compete in the transfer market. Will it succeed? Given our non-existent training facility and little hope of a new stadium, I think it's unlikely we would be an attractive option to the next footballing wunderkind. We won't be pushing anywhere near the top of tier 3 and we'll be more likely to be struggling against relegation to tier 4 for the foreseeable future. IMHO. I hope that answers your questions. As ever, it's been a pleasure. You said "sink down the leagues" and i was wondering which "leagues" are ok with you? League 2 is of course a league below where we are now. Its not "leagues" lower.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Apr 15, 2020 11:23:24 GMT
Indeed. Although a by-product of the CV crisis, the salaries clubs pay their employees and the problems of football is largely football’s problem so it’s good to see those clubs accepting that. Now that those have acted it will be interesting to see if the PFA and the players do anything. The collective action possibility from last weekend that failed means that by and large players have held onto their salaries.....so far. UTG! I'd just love Premiership/Championship footballers salaries to collapse to more sustainable levels. OK - the "top 6" can probably justify it, but everyone else is screwed as they try and compete for the next tier of decent players just to stay in the Premier League. Hyper-inflation in Premier League wages has fed inflation lower down the leagues. We pay Kyle Bennett £4k a week FFS! Lunacy. Now I know effectively that is BRFC's 'choice'. If we did not offer competitive wages we would sink down the leagues and there would be lots and lots of unhappy fans. Speaking for myself - I'd actually be happy to see us in the lower leagues with a sustainable model, and build from there. But that's just me. I'm only happy with this if there is a complete revision of the business and ownership models in football with the gains in power and cost being passed down to fans. What I'm not happy with is a scenario in which players take massive paycuts in order for extremely wealthy owners to hoover up the profits of the game. That is not very far away from previous generations in which owners and boards pocketed money from underpaying players through maximum wage restrictions while at the same time treating fans with contempt by failing to invest in decrepid facilities.
If there's plenty of money in the game (which despite everything there clearly is) then absent of a more holistic system all round I'm perfectly happy for the players to earn that money. The comparison with investment bankers is a false one I think because they have very different economic roles and produce wealth in very different ways. Players are 'the talent' - in that sense they are the product. There are other people who make a lot of money off that product by selling it, investing it, servicing it etc. But fundamentally, the better the players the better the product. Ultimately the product would simply not exist without them. In the case of Investment Bankers (in theory at least if not practice), their job in the chain is surely is that the product achieves its maximum economic potential.
It seems reasonable to me that those who are the product gain the most from it. People don't have problems with musicians earning tons of money. I fail to see the different. These are uniquely talented people (even the crap ones) working in an industry worth billions. It seems fair enough that they are rewarded for that. The issue I think is whether it should really be a billion pound+ industry but I think that ship sailed quite some ago.
One way to create a more sustainable model in professional sports that still fits with the current business model is to have collective bargaining agreements between players and owners. This happens in most US sports leagues and, with occasional moments of strive, largely seems to work for the benefit of both parties, but that is a much more corporate and highly regulated set-up compared to the wild west of European football and doesn't easily translate into promotion/relegation scenarios.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Apr 15, 2020 11:32:57 GMT
I'd just love Premiership/Championship footballers salaries to collapse to more sustainable levels. OK - the "top 6" can probably justify it, but everyone else is screwed as they try and compete for the next tier of decent players just to stay in the Premier League. Hyper-inflation in Premier League wages has fed inflation lower down the leagues. We pay Kyle Bennett £4k a week FFS! Lunacy. Now I know effectively that is BRFC's 'choice'. If we did not offer competitive wages we would sink down the leagues and there would be lots and lots of unhappy fans. Speaking for myself - I'd actually be happy to see us in the lower leagues with a sustainable model, and build from there. But that's just me. Which lower leagues are you on about? You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. How many relegations are you happy with? Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? It’s obvious that the club is not being run in a sustainable level and I guess that would come to it’s own inevitable conclusion and we would face relegation anyway. We would also see argument if we did somehow get promoted. Something had to give and if it meant playing L2 but the debt not being there then I’d be ok with that. Anyone who is in denial that we are in a very precarious situation are not paying attention.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 21:58:25 GMT
Which lower leagues are you on about? You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. How many relegations are you happy with? Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? It’s obvious that the club is not being run in a sustainable level and I guess that would come to it’s own inevitable conclusion and we would face relegation anyway. We would also see argument if we did somehow get promoted. Something had to give and if it meant playing L2 but the debt not being there then I’d be ok with that. Anyone who is in denial that we are in a very precarious situation are not paying attention. But yiu only have to read the forums after say 2 defeats to realise most people do not except losing matches to help sustainability. Hardly anyone says "lets not forget ben is bringing younger lower paid players in" do they?
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
Don't care
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 15, 2020 23:03:11 GMT
1. Which lower leagues are you on about? In terms of "inflation lower down the leagues" - anything below tier 2. Your question could refer to two other statements I made though. Sadly I'm not a mind reader. 2. You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. Nope - I don't understand what you are trying to say. 3. How many relegations are you happy with? You mean how many relegations would I be happy with? Well none. But realistically, if Rovers are to survive in the currently unsustainable paradigm, then I guess tier 4 is inevitable. I believe we could survive there and not lose money year on year if we can keep our gates above say 6,500k-7k. 4. Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players? OK - I tried that in google translate but it didn't really help. I guess your question is along the lines of "Am I happy with the current model employed by our manager (and effectively our owners) that relies heavily on investment in youth and bringing those players into the first team squad?" Well I don't think we have any choice because we cannot compete in the transfer market. Will it succeed? Given our non-existent training facility and little hope of a new stadium, I think it's unlikely we would be an attractive option to the next footballing wunderkind. We won't be pushing anywhere near the top of tier 3 and we'll be more likely to be struggling against relegation to tier 4 for the foreseeable future. IMHO. I hope that answers your questions. As ever, it's been a pleasure. You said "sink down the leagues" and i was wondering which "leagues" are ok with you? League 2 is of course a league below where we are now. Its not "leagues" lower. That's just semantics. But I hear what you are saying (kind of). I could accept tier 4, if we had a sustainable model that might see us back in tier 3 one day with a real chance of pushing to tier 2, yeah all good. And by the same token should we be back in tier 5 with a believable medium term strategy that could get us back to tier 4, 3 and beyond - yes, at a push, if that's what it takes. As a few people have mentioned over the years, the non-league season (although initially humiliating) provided some fantastic times with the real supporters of BRFC sticking together through the toughest of times. Eventually their reward was at Wembley. Ultimately that year wasn't too bad, was it? And it led to the 'mini boom years' that followed.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 16, 2020 9:24:07 GMT
You said "sink down the leagues" and i was wondering which "leagues" are ok with you? League 2 is of course a league below where we are now. Its not "leagues" lower. That's just semantics. But I hear what you are saying (kind of). I could accept tier 4, if we had a sustainable model that might see us back in tier 3 one day with a real chance of pushing to tier 2, yeah all good. And by the same token should we be back in tier 5 with a believable medium term strategy that could get us back to tier 4, 3 and beyond - yes, at a push, if that's what it takes. As a few people have mentioned over the years, the non-league season (although initially humiliating) provided some fantastic times with the real supporters of BRFC sticking together through the toughest of times. Eventually their reward was at Wembley. Ultimately that year wasn't too bad, was it? And it led to the 'mini boom years' that followed. Whilst I can follow the logic, going into tier 5 even with a medium term strategy would not be acceptable really would it? I’ve yet to see a club drop out of the league saying “it’s ok, it’s part of a plan.” I loved that year in non league probably for the same reasons you did but I was mightily relieved to get out of it after only 1 year. Going into League 2 would be just about acceptable but non league probably not. But talking around the huge debt and the attempts to make a sustainable club could lead to that. That I do accept could happen, but not happily. Trouble is I’m not sure WAQ has any plan, good, bad or indifferent. UTG!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Apr 16, 2020 10:16:11 GMT
You said "sink down the leagues" and i was wondering which "leagues" are ok with you? League 2 is of course a league below where we are now. Its not "leagues" lower. That's just semantics. But I hear what you are saying (kind of). I could accept tier 4, if we had a sustainable model that might see us back in tier 3 one day with a real chance of pushing to tier 2, yeah all good. And by the same token should we be back in tier 5 with a believable medium term strategy that could get us back to tier 4, 3 and beyond - yes, at a push, if that's what it takes. As a few people have mentioned over the years, the non-league season (although initially humiliating) provided some fantastic times with the real supporters of BRFC sticking together through the toughest of times. Eventually their reward was at Wembley. Ultimately that year wasn't too bad, was it? And it led to the 'mini boom years' that followed. I think you are talking about 2 different things to an extent.
On the one hand there is the issue of Rovers and what might be (speculatively) the onfield consequences of running a more sustainable model within challenges of the current business model of football in the UK. FC United I think have quite effectively demonstrated where the ceiling is for clubs that try the utopian version of 'doing football differently' in that context, although there maybe more pragmatic models that could achieve more onfield success.
The other issue is the potential for reform of the business model itself which is surely the big prize. But that seems like pie-in-the-sky thinking short of a massive financial collapse in the game or a truly spectacular scandal that finally forced government's to intervene on governance rules. Either way it's hard to see how that change could come in any other than a top down way.
I do know some FC United people briefly explored the idea of a breakaway league of like-minded clubs founded on totally different principles. So you'd have FC, Wimbledon, Dulwich Hamlet, Darlington. City of Liverpool etc who are all to a greater or lesser extent fan owned clubs run by people with an interest in doing it differently. The argument was that if you could survive for a few years as a breakaway league and generate some interest it might tempt fans of struggling cash strapped lower league clubs to go that way as well creating a whole alternative structure for football that really could be something different. Probably wouldn't work for all kinds of reasons (not least that it's hard to see what would be in it for the players) but an interesting idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 6:21:30 GMT
I disagree with Uncle Eppers. BRFC's up division is the second. Its down division is the third. I never accepted the fourth division. I do agree with sustainability. But I believe BRFC's actual and potential third division attendances are sufficient for the right infrastructure and ownership to deliver this sustainability. The fourth division only hastens its death.
Edit: when social distancing is only a horrid memory, then Uncle Eppers and Vertigo Bluesky will be sat together at my first dinner party.
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 21, 2020 8:49:13 GMT
I disagree with Uncle Eppers. BRFC's up division is the second. Its down division is the third. I never accepted the fourth division. I do agree with sustainability. But I believe BRFC's actual and potential third division attendances are sufficient for the right infrastructure and ownership to deliver this sustainability. The fourth division only hastens its death. Edit: when social distancing is only a horrid memory, then Uncle Eppers and Vertigo Bluesky will be sat together at my first dinner party. Sadly my feathered friend, we haven't played tier 2 football for 26 years. Our new 'up' is tier 3, our new 'down' is tier 4. If you accept sustainability, then you will have to accept tier 4 football at some stage. Agree that with our attendancies we should be sustainable in tier 3. Sadly our lack of infrastructure and anything resembling competent ownership means we are in worse shape than Accrington Stanley. So at some stage, quite possibly under Garnerball, prepare yourself for tier 4. I thank you for the offer of a dinner party invitation and would gratefully like to accept. I believe your nest is on the posh side of the Lee Valley, I can cycle over. Please provide food appropriate for homo sapiens. And vertigo. I would like to buy that man a pint. (Punctuation eh?)
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 21, 2020 13:31:37 GMT
I disagree with Uncle Eppers. BRFC's up division is the second. Its down division is the third. I never accepted the fourth division. I do agree with sustainability. But I believe BRFC's actual and potential third division attendances are sufficient for the right infrastructure and ownership to deliver this sustainability. The fourth division only hastens its death. Edit: when social distancing is only a horrid memory, then Uncle Eppers and Vertigo Bluesky will be sat together at my first dinner party. Sadly my feathered friend, we haven't played tier 2 football for 26 years. Our new 'up' is tier 3, our new 'down' is tier 4. If you accept sustainability, then you will have to accept tier 4 football at some stage. Agree that with our attendancies we should be sustainable in tier 3. Sadly our lack of infrastructure and anything resembling competent ownership means we are in worse shape than Accrington Stanley. So at some stage, quite possibly under Garnerball, prepare yourself for tier 4. I thank you for the offer of a dinner party invitation and would gratefully like to accept. I believe your nest is on the posh side of the Lee Valley, I can cycle over. Please provide food appropriate for homo sapiens. And vertigo. I would like to buy that man a pint. (Punctuation eh?) I agree with both, Shoveller if I had fallen asleep in 2000 and epping if I’d been awake. Sadly at my age I can remember when Shoveller’s view was the norm but I’m afraid the last 20 years has given us a new reality. But things change so I’m ever optimistic.... but then I wake up, realise we’re £24m, or thereabouts, in debt with little infrastructure to show for it. Had we our new training ground or the beginnings of a new ground for that debt figure then I could see some kind of light at the end of the tunnel. Unfortunately that debt has grown with little tangible difference to show. But I’d definitely rather have Shoveller’s dreams than epping’s reality. UTG!
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Apr 21, 2020 15:13:19 GMT
I never accepted the fourth division. Is that a deeply held political position or an article of religious faith?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 20:23:22 GMT
Sadly my feathered friend, we haven't played tier 2 football for 26 years. I'm aware. I started going to Rovers after the return to Bristol, standing on the Mem's then uncovered 'North' Terrace. August... 1998 or 1999. Either way, I've never seen the second division. Our new 'up' is tier 3, our new 'down' is tier 4. If you accept sustainability, then you will have to accept tier 4 football at some stage. I don't accept BRFC's future of fourth division football any more than I accept the UK's future of social distancing, contact with grandparents by video call only, and no production or economy. A terrible recent history does not require a terrible future. I do not accept your proposal. Why don't I? Agree that with our attendancies we should be sustainable in tier 3. This is why. Sadly our lack of infrastructure and anything resembling competent ownership means we are in worse shape than Accrington Stanley. Infrastructure and something resembling competent ownership: this is my demand. You should have this printed on a tee shirt. Visit Tesco Cheshunt Extra after 9pm and then tell me this is the 'posh side of the Lee Valley'. I'm East of the A10, Sir, and it shows. Lower your expectations. Is that a deeply held political position or an article of religious faith? Always the former, comrade.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 21:30:33 GMT
Dutch government have ordered that there to be no major events until september 1st and their prime minister has stated it would be unwise to play without fans before that date.
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Post by lostinspace on Apr 28, 2020 16:18:03 GMT
The French FA have ended their league 1 & 2 forthwith, following the governments ban on sport taking place FULL STOP!! behind closed doors will not be an option until September..... pressure mounting for the rest of the top leagues, thats two with the Dutch leading the way
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2020 16:41:00 GMT
The French FA have ended their league 1 & 2 forthwith, following the governments ban on sport taking place FULL STOP!! behind closed doors will not be an option until September..... pressure mounting for the rest of the top leagues, thats two with the Dutch leading the way Some PL players have returned to training. Expect a date to be announced soon for resumption of that division. I'm sat here thinking about the Ford fuel tank scandal, where someone put in one column the number of lives that they thought would be lost and in another column how much it would cost to prevent those deaths.
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Post by lostinspace on Apr 29, 2020 7:53:21 GMT
interesting bit this am on 5live, where Matt le Tissier has basically called the urge to re start as CONTRACURAL MONEY OBLIGATION from the likes of SKY ......Players needing to be tested 2 times a week,, and where does the 2 meter rule come in re social distancing? tackles should be non existent , man to man marking? it seems that it is all about money and not welfare related at all .. call it off and go WHEN it is safe to do so as per pre virus times
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Apr 29, 2020 8:50:37 GMT
interesting bit this am on 5live, where Matt le Tissier has basically called the urge to re start as CONTRACURAL MONEY OBLIGATION from the likes of SKY ......Players needing to be tested 2 times a week,, and where does the 2 meter rule come in re social distancing? tackles should be non existent , man to man marking? it seems that it is all about money and not welfare related at all .. call it off and go WHEN it is safe to do so as per pre virus times I think it is pretty much nigh on impossible to strictly observe the 2 metre rule in any workplace, let alone football. You can- and should- try, but inevitably that 2 metre rule will be broken.
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