eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 7, 2020 0:26:32 GMT
Please. I respect other people's opinions. But can we just keep this thread related to football/sport. Good night, keep safe & UTG.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 0:45:53 GMT
Please. I respect other people's opinions. But can we just keep this thread related to football/sport. Good night, keep safe & UTG. What you actually mean is can we keep this thread about footballers giving up their wages but dont worry about anyone else who earns shed loads of money.
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Post by chelt_gas on Apr 7, 2020 2:06:17 GMT
This debate has so many layers. But, for me, it goes back to the essence of what we are all going through and trying to combat together, irrelative of wealth, class, ethnicity or creed. For me (sorry to sound all DC) if we face a societal problem then all areas of society are required to respond proportionately as without society we're all worse off.
So the big corporations who evade tax thus taking from society or the footballers who have become wealthy from the subscription of the masses do have a moral duty to respond proportionately.
I hope Lord Bath's estate pays their fair share of inheritance tax.
I hope countries and corporations who have exploited wealthier countries or have benefitted from the creaming of key staff such as nurses from poorer countries also proportionately compensate.
It's just about fairness and being able to feel satisfied that we all have a moral conscience.
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 7, 2020 8:24:29 GMT
Please. I respect other people's opinions. But can we just keep this thread related to football/sport. Good night, keep safe & UTG. What you actually mean is can we keep this thread about footballers giving up their wages but dont worry about anyone else who earns shed loads of money. No. I know perfectly well what I mean thank you, and I think I've expressed myself clearly enough. For the 3rd (possibly 4th) time... this thread relates to the financial response of football to the CV national crisis. It has widened to include sport in general. Fine. If someone wants to open a new thread to look at tax structures in the wider economy - that's also fine. Be my guest. The danger is that a football supporter looks at the thread and assumes it relates solely to football. They then get very p*ssed off.
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Apr 7, 2020 8:41:48 GMT
What you actually mean is can we keep this thread about footballers giving up their wages but dont worry about anyone else who earns shed loads of money. No. I know perfectly well what I mean thank you, and I think I've expressed myself clearly enough. For the 3rd (possibly 4th) time... this thread relates to the financial response of football to the CV national crisis. It has widened to include sport in general. Fine. If someone wants to open a new thread to look at tax structures in the wider economy - that's also fine. Be my guest. The danger is that a football supporter looks at the thread and assumes it relates solely to football. They then get very p*ssed off. Do people really get that annoyed if they read something on here and it's not exactly what they wanted or expected to read?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 9:55:19 GMT
What you actually mean is can we keep this thread about footballers giving up their wages but dont worry about anyone else who earns shed loads of money. No. I know perfectly well what I mean thank you, and I think I've expressed myself clearly enough. For the 3rd (possibly 4th) time... this thread relates to the financial response of football to the CV national crisis. It has widened to include sport in general. Fine. If someone wants to open a new thread to look at tax structures in the wider economy - that's also fine. Be my guest. The danger is that a football supporter looks at the thread and assumes it relates solely to football. They then get very p*ssed off. Don't worry too much about people moaning, the main person who complained was Vertigo himself, he's decided that it's OK to discuss things involving politics now, so we are good to go. He's picking the wrong fight though. Branson has pledged to give away half of his fortune to charity. It's odd that Gates has had a lot of publicity for making the exact same pledge, but they've both agreed to do it. Outside of that commitment, here's the first list of charities that I found that Branson directly assists; 21st Century Leaders 46664 Aegis Trust African Wildlife Foundation American Civil Liberties Union Avoided Deforestation Partners Cancer Research UK Caudwell Children charity:water Children In Crisis Children with AIDS Eve Branson Foundation Free The Children Girls Not Brides Greenpeace Heavens Angels International Rescue Corps Kids Company Life College Make A Child Smile Appeal Marie Keating Foundation Mineseeker Foundation Novak Djokovic Foundation Peace One Day Prince's Rainforests Project ROTA Save the Elephants Small Steps Project Stand Up To Cancer Starfish Greathearts Foundation Strike a Chord for Cancer Foundation Swan Lifeline The Elders Virgin Unite Water.org Whatever It Takes WildAid. There are probably more, that lot took literally 1 minute to find. Rees Mogg is more difficult. He's elected off of a manifesto and commitments on local issues, and his constituents seem happy with him, but there's a very good reason that he was hidden away during the election campaign. If anybody can be arsed, just Google Wentworth Woodhouse restoration. But before shouting that this is typical behaviour for a Tory Toff, the Benn family cooked up a nice little scheme where they handed some old diaries, notes and recordings to The British Library, and in so doing avoided paying the £210,000 inheritance tax due on Tony's estate. If you are looking for principled people, the political arena may not be the best place to start.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 10:10:46 GMT
I dont think this thread has been political. With rees-mogg i just googled wealthy politicians and his name came up,thinking about it now could just as easily be that well known money grabber tony blair. I also made a comment about wealthy old etonians but i guess some labour politicians go went to posh public schools? The real point for me which as usual people choose to pretend they have not understood is that its unfair to single out footballers and not mention the great many other wealthy people.
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Post by a more piratey game on Apr 7, 2020 10:19:56 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 11:09:47 GMT
I dont think this thread has been political. With rees-mogg i just googled wealthy politicians and his name came up,thinking about it now could just as easily be that well known money grabber tony blair. I also made a comment about wealthy old etonians but i guess some labour politicians go went to posh public schools? The real point for me which as usual people choose to pretend they have not understood is that its unfair to single out footballers and not mention the great many other wealthy people. Oh give over. You've got all political and then been reminded that it was you who was stressy a while back about this exact same thing, it's quite funny. Just to help you, although not on this thread, still from this forum, so you breaking your own rules; The cat's out of the bag, it's a political free for all from now on. To reinforce things. Labour actually campaigned against the status that Eton, all fee paying schools, but specifically Eton, enjoys. Mentioning it and then singling out JRM was politically motivated, you are fooling nobody. Moving right along. Do you need it explaining why going after CEOs won't work?
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Apr 7, 2020 11:36:08 GMT
I dont think this thread has been political. With rees-mogg i just googled wealthy politicians and his name came up,thinking about it now could just as easily be that well known money grabber tony blair. I also made a comment about wealthy old etonians but i guess some labour politicians go went to posh public schools? The real point for me which as usual people choose to pretend they have not understood is that its unfair to single out footballers and not mention the great many other wealthy people. Oh give over. You've got all political and then been reminded that it was you who was stressy a while back about this exact same thing, it's quite funny. Labour actually campaigned against the status that Eton, all fee paying schools, but specifically Eton, enjoys. Mentioning it and then singling out JRM was politically motivated, you are fooling nobody. Moving right along. Do you need it explaining why going after CEOs won't work? I think it was me who initially mentioned Rees Mogg, although I did it just as an example, almost to a man they are all pretty much peas in a pod , with the possible exception of Corbyn, who I think really is in it because he wants to improve things (although this of course doesn't mean he would have done a good job of it!) I don't think we should be 'going after' anyone, all this came about because of a cheap shot by Hancock who knew footballers would be an easy target. In the interest of balance regarding principled politicians, I thought Thatcher was one. I absolutely think her policies fuelled the divisions we still see in society today and think she has blood on her hands as much as Blair, but I do think she did what she did for what she perceived to be the right reasons. Can we have our serious forum back please
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 7, 2020 12:10:31 GMT
Agree with this about wealthy people generally but I guess a big difference is that perhaps some of the very wealthy people aren’t employed by companies (PL clubs) who are furloughing non-playing staff and applying to get government money to pay the clubs’ staffs. I think it is the hypocrisy of very, very wealthy clubs using a scheme (which I dont think was meant for them but other non football companies) to get out of their own problems, get out of their responsibilities when they are very wealthy clubs. Pretty sure tax payers should not be funding PL clubs or any football club for that matter when “stars” are being paid the salaries they are. Whilst that is not necessarily the fault of the players but in this current situation the players can’t really pretend or think they are an easy target. They are very, very wealthy people who may well be keeping their salaries whilst other club workers are put on furlough and the clubs are expecting the government to pick up the tab. Total hypocrisy and in the present situation totally unacceptable. By all means think of ways of getting wealthy people to pay more but that is unlikely to happen. Whilst I don’t like the PL stars paying the huge wages they do I understand why but when the clubs have a problem over cash flow etc then they shouldn’t turn round and expect the government to pick up the tab on their lowest paid employees. They can’t have it both ways. I think the issue is clouded by the individual action by some last week which just highlighted the whole issue and now they are trying to consider collective action which is a clearly more difficult to achieve and is coming over as a responsive action not a proactive one. They’ve been forced into considering it not initiating it. Football and footballers, mainly the PL, but not exclusively, have placed themselves and assumed a privileged position and have over a very long period of time taken financial advantage of the cash-cow football has become. The clubs have been happy to pay these contracts thinking it would go on and on. Well, now the situation has come to an abrupt end, albeit temporarily, and they are now attempting to portray themselves in a better light and are all running around firing off on twitter and trying to sound earnest and upright. Its a bit like the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes, alternatively it’s a load of total bo****. Keep safe. UTG! My original point is about people lashing out at the actual players not the clubs. Plenty of very wealthy top staff at currently redundant businesses are not being a target for critical comment. To me the idea of getting better contribution during the crisis from wealthy people is nothing to do with football but an theory that individuals earning a certain amount of money maybe could help more during the crisis. How can it be right to lash out at raheem sterling while not bothering at all with richard branson or jacob rees-mogg? Yes, that is a fair point. Are these wealthy people at “currently redundant businesses” accessing the government support and furloughing staff? Ive no idea but I know some football clubs are. And you are right about the whole principle of wealthy people helping during the current crisis but this is a football forum so the emphasis will be on footballers and football. I dont know if Branson is helping at the current time but I am presuming that you know he isn’t. Has Rees-Mogg put any staff on furlough and is he taking advantage of the government scheme? I don’t know but again I presume you know he has. If they have taken advantage of the scheme then yes you are correct. But I dont have that information, you perhaps do. We know Sterling does a lot of good and he would not have been a player I criticised but I guess the question will come down to the fact that lots of players have done and are doing a lot of good in their own way. There will be others that don’t. The very fact that football, the PL and the clubs were unable to come to a collective decision about how to cut wages tells me a lot about the basic selfishness of many players. (And that does not mean they are any worse than the “wealthy people” you are focussing on). Your overall point is completely valid but tha5 should not absolve footballers from responsibility. And my main point of argument was always about the utter hypocrisy of the PL and clubs of accessing government support to help their most vulnerable employees whilst their superstars were largely unaffected. They have the money to pay the most vulnerable yet some clubs choose not to and pass the buck to the government. As I say pure hypocrisy. And unacceptable at this time. I hope all are safe at your end. UTG! edit: I wrote this before I read the last page of posts esp Bamber’s post about Branson.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 12:13:28 GMT
Oh give over. You've got all political and then been reminded that it was you who was stressy a while back about this exact same thing, it's quite funny. Labour actually campaigned against the status that Eton, all fee paying schools, but specifically Eton, enjoys. Mentioning it and then singling out JRM was politically motivated, you are fooling nobody. Moving right along. Do you need it explaining why going after CEOs won't work? I think it was me who initially mentioned Rees Mogg, although I did it just as an example, almost to a man they are all pretty much peas in a pod , with the possible exception of Corbyn, who I think really is in it because he wants to improve things (although this of course doesn't mean he would have done a good job of it!) I don't think we should be 'going after' anyone, all this came about because of a cheap shot by Hancock who knew footballers would be an easy target. In the interest of balance regarding principled politicians, I thought Thatcher was one. I absolutely think her policies fuelled the divisions we still see in society today and think she has blood on her hands as much as Blair, but I do think she did what she did for what she perceived to be the right reasons. Can we have our serious forum back please Always the way, isn't it. Seems that power corrupts. Benn senior was a principled Man. Don't agree with his politics, nothing but respect for him as a Man. His Son is a snivelling sh1tweasle who disgraces the family name.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 19:38:12 GMT
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Apr 7, 2020 21:15:29 GMT
A lot of this will be referencing the non-league game. Watching FC United these last few years has been a bit of an eye-opener on that score. I think there needs to be a massive re-think of the way the non-league game operates. It's a microcosm of what happens in the Premier League in the sense that it is a survival of the fittest/richest. But it makes even less sense at that level. Players move around so often that there's no real link between club, player and fan in the non-league game. Clubs just constantly compete to strip the next club down the rank of its best players by offering marginally better terms and it knocks on down the chain. This is a crazy way to build a semi-professional/amateur structure because you need people to develop strong attachments to clubs and communities in order to keep them going. If a player has had a good non-league career in my part of the world he'll have probably played for about 7-8 years and might have had 10 clubs or more. So they won't have developed a particular attachment or loyalty to any of them. So when he jacks it in he's unlikely to feel the pull to put something back in as a volunteer because the ties aren't there. I find that worrying. If you look at who runs and volunteers at grassroots club they're mostly ex-players who love the club and the community around the club. Take that away and there's real issues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 22:01:02 GMT
My original point is about people lashing out at the actual players not the clubs. Plenty of very wealthy top staff at currently redundant businesses are not being a target for critical comment. To me the idea of getting better contribution during the crisis from wealthy people is nothing to do with football but an theory that individuals earning a certain amount of money maybe could help more during the crisis. How can it be right to lash out at raheem sterling while not bothering at all with richard branson or jacob rees-mogg? Yes, that is a fair point. Are these wealthy people at “currently redundant businesses” accessing the government support and furloughing staff? Ive no idea but I know some football clubs are. And you are right about the whole principle of wealthy people helping during the current crisis but this is a football forum so the emphasis will be on footballers and football. I dont know if Branson is helping at the current time but I am presuming that you know he isn’t. Has Rees-Mogg put any staff on furlough and is he taking advantage of the government scheme? I don’t know but again I presume you know he has. If they have taken advantage of the scheme then yes you are correct. But I dont have that information, you perhaps do. We know Sterling does a lot of good and he would not have been a player I criticised but I guess the question will come down to the fact that lots of players have done and are doing a lot of good in their own way. There will be others that don’t. The very fact that football, the PL and the clubs were unable to come to a collective decision about how to cut wages tells me a lot about the basic selfishness of many players. (And that does not mean they are any worse than the “wealthy people” you are focussing on). Your overall point is completely valid but tha5 should not absolve footballers from responsibility. And my main point of argument was always about the utter hypocrisy of the PL and clubs of accessing government support to help their most vulnerable employees whilst their superstars were largely unaffected. They have the money to pay the most vulnerable yet some clubs choose not to and pass the buck to the government. As I say pure hypocrisy. And unacceptable at this time. I hope all are safe at your end. UTG! edit: I wrote this before I read the last page of posts esp Bamber’s post about Branson. In my view if the clubs furlough players and staff its ok but paying players fully and putting non playing staff on furlough is very poor. If you somehow brought in a system of wealthy people paying more it would have to be regardless of how much they chose to donate of their own accord. Lots of companies who have made millions for years are now furloughing staff just like tottenham but not liverpool now. Whats the difference between say primark,virgin airways or spurs regarding furloughing staff?
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 13, 2020 15:41:01 GMT
First Liverpool now Tottenham. Clubs now beginning to take notice of what their fans are saying. Perhaps some clubs doing something to offset the sense of a “moral vacuum.” UTG! www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52271235
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 13, 2020 16:15:08 GMT
First Liverpool now Tottenham. Clubs now beginning to take notice of what their fans are saying. Perhaps some clubs doing something to offset the sense of a “moral vacuum.” UTG! www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52271235Fantastic news. Supporters can have a bit of sway with how Football Clubs behave in times of national crisis. Who'd have thunk it. Wealthy Premiership/Championship Clubs furloughing non-playing staff is absolutely disgusting. Cue the moral outrage as some horrid, beastly people would appear to be 'picking on Football Clubs'.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Apr 13, 2020 17:58:36 GMT
First Liverpool now Tottenham. Clubs now beginning to take notice of what their fans are saying. Perhaps some clubs doing something to offset the sense of a “moral vacuum.” UTG! www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52271235Fantastic news. Supporters can have a bit of sway with how Football Clubs behave in times of national crisis. Who'd have thunk it. Wealthy Premiership/Championship Clubs furloughing non-playing staff is absolutely disgusting. Cue the moral outrage as some horrid, beastly people would appear to be 'picking on Football Clubs'. Indeed. Although a by-product of the CV crisis, the salaries clubs pay their employees and the problems of football is largely football’s problem so it’s good to see those clubs accepting that. Now that those have acted it will be interesting to see if the PFA and the players do anything. The collective action possibility from last weekend that failed means that by and large players have held onto their salaries.....so far. UTG!
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Apr 13, 2020 19:47:20 GMT
Fantastic news. Supporters can have a bit of sway with how Football Clubs behave in times of national crisis. Who'd have thunk it. Wealthy Premiership/Championship Clubs furloughing non-playing staff is absolutely disgusting. Cue the moral outrage as some horrid, beastly people would appear to be 'picking on Football Clubs'. Indeed. Although a by-product of the CV crisis, the salaries clubs pay their employees and the problems of football is largely football’s problem so it’s good to see those clubs accepting that. Now that those have acted it will be interesting to see if the PFA and the players do anything. The collective action possibility from last weekend that failed means that by and large players have held onto their salaries.....so far. UTG! I'd just love Premiership/Championship footballers salaries to collapse to more sustainable levels. OK - the "top 6" can probably justify it, but everyone else is screwed as they try and compete for the next tier of decent players just to stay in the Premier League. Hyper-inflation in Premier League wages has fed inflation lower down the leagues. We pay Kyle Bennett £4k a week FFS! Lunacy. Now I know effectively that is BRFC's 'choice'. If we did not offer competitive wages we would sink down the leagues and there would be lots and lots of unhappy fans. Speaking for myself - I'd actually be happy to see us in the lower leagues with a sustainable model, and build from there. But that's just me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 0:20:47 GMT
Indeed. Although a by-product of the CV crisis, the salaries clubs pay their employees and the problems of football is largely football’s problem so it’s good to see those clubs accepting that. Now that those have acted it will be interesting to see if the PFA and the players do anything. The collective action possibility from last weekend that failed means that by and large players have held onto their salaries.....so far. UTG! I'd just love Premiership/Championship footballers salaries to collapse to more sustainable levels. OK - the "top 6" can probably justify it, but everyone else is screwed as they try and compete for the next tier of decent players just to stay in the Premier League. Hyper-inflation in Premier League wages has fed inflation lower down the leagues. We pay Kyle Bennett £4k a week FFS! Lunacy. Now I know effectively that is BRFC's 'choice'. If we did not offer competitive wages we would sink down the leagues and there would be lots and lots of unhappy fans. Speaking for myself - I'd actually be happy to see us in the lower leagues with a sustainable model, and build from there. But that's just me. Which lower leagues are you on about? You know the ones you would be happy with,leagues you said. How many relegations are you happy with? Your clearly right onboard with the garner idea of cheaper younger players?
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