|
|
Post by Mrs V Smegma on Mar 9, 2020 21:39:56 GMT
So for all those who still think BG will come good despite the evidence of the past 18 games, please enlighten me on what I am not able to see. Specifically, what is the pattern of play and formation we are trying to instill? Also what signs of improvement do you see in our play? I just can’t see anything and feel like the little boy who knows the Emperor is stark bollock naked.
I could see what DC was trying to do despite all his tinkering. It generally consisted in moving the ball forward quickly and usually via a link man ( the scaly thing) who was adept at bringing others into play. This in turn led to creation of large number of chances for said link man who was able to convert enough despite his profligacy in front of goal. True DC started to overthink and over complicate at the end but the football was good to watch and exciting during the good years.
I could also see what GC was trying to do - 5 at the back, defend as if lives depended on it low press but quick break. This made us incredibly hard to beat. It was not easy on the eye but was really effective. It also made the best of the hand that GC was dealt.
I have absolutely no idea what Benny is trying to do and have seen some really strange formations that don’t work and gift possession especially in midfield to the opposition. When he eventually changes things around because inevitably it isn’t working, the changes are usually even more unfathomable and make us even worse. He also seems to want to change the entire squad to deliver his masterplan.
Possibly ITB has got this right and that with players with technical ability of the calibre that we are unlikely ever to see in a league we are never likely to reach it would work. I have my doubts though even in these circumstances.
So what is it that I am missing here? Happy to be educated and also happy to nail my colours to the mast as a dinosaur who prefers 4 4 2 albeit one who can live with alternatives if they are effective and bring out the best in the squad we have.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 22:56:20 GMT
I would love Geoff Twentyman to invite him on to having a gas so he can ask the man himself that very question.
What’s more I am sure that Ben would be only too happy to explain to West Country sport’s equivalent of Jeremy Paxman what his ideas are, in detail, and why he has so far been unable to implement them.
Get him on Geoff. I am sure we will all be converted afterwards.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 23:26:02 GMT
With the 2 previous managers it was beautifully clear what the team were trying to do except the period when DC lost his way.
With garner we seem to play out from the back in a half hearted way but then abandon the idea and lump it.
When we play 4-3-3 we usually employ 2 fast wide forwards like ginelly,mitchell-lawson or the quite fast rodman but they do not actually play wide but instead play narrow?
The midfield are the same players that screened the defence under coughlan but no longer provide that?
There is just no identity with the team under garner and nobody who interviews him seems to ask him how he would like his team to play.
|
|
TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,327 
|
Post by TaiwanGas on Mar 10, 2020 3:24:24 GMT
I'm with you Mrs Smegma, but I have nothing to add as I believe the problem goes far deeper than Benny, the very fact he is still allowed to give interviews is way way way beyond me. Benny, Starnes, Wael "folie a trois.".
|
|
|
|
Post by toteend3 on Mar 10, 2020 10:29:03 GMT
THE FASTEST MILKFLOAT IN THE WEST!
|
|
|
|
Post by CabbagePatchBlues on Mar 10, 2020 10:35:34 GMT
With the 2 previous managers it was beautifully clear what the team were trying to do except the period when DC lost his way. With garner we seem to play out from the back in a half hearted way but then abandon the idea and lump it. When we play 4-3-3 we usually employ 2 fast wide forwards like ginelly,mitchell-lawson or the quite fast rodman but they do not actually play wide but instead play narrow? The midfield are the same players that screened the defence under coughlan but no longer provide that? There is just no identity with the team under garner and nobody who interviews him seems to ask him how he would like his team to play. Actually, Clarke fumbled around with formations and weird tactics during the first half of all his seasons with us. I remember fans getting on his back over why he persisted with this instead of playing a simple 4-4-2, so it wasn't perfectly clear what he was trying to do either until well into the season. I liked Coughlan's 3-5-2 because it allows expansive football. His style was fast and furious, which gave the players energy and got them working hard all over the pitch putting their bodies on the line. It wasn't the finished article either as fans seemed to think. The window was looming and I'm pretty sure he would have brought in one or two players better suited to his style in order to step it up. We'll never know now but one thing's for sure, DC and GC seemed to know what they was doing and stuck to it stubbornly. Garner doesn't and is on a steep learning curve. |
|
|
|
Post by toteend3 on Mar 10, 2020 10:41:03 GMT
PROMOTION!
|
|
|
|
Post by toteend3 on Mar 10, 2020 10:48:32 GMT
TAKE A CHANCE ON ME - SOS - WATERLOO - AND NEW SONG -DOWN THE LOO!
|
|
|
|
Post by toteend3 on Mar 10, 2020 10:53:33 GMT
BENNY URBAN DICTIONARY - THATS A LOW BLOW!
|
|
|
|
Post by toteend3 on Mar 10, 2020 10:56:28 GMT
BENNY - WIKTIONARY - THATS ANOTHER LOW BLOW!
|
|
|
|
Post by toteend3 on Mar 10, 2020 11:09:20 GMT
BILL! - STOP IT - THATS ENOUGH
FOR THE RECORD I AM MEETING THE BOYS IN THE PUB AT 4 THATS AFTER LUMPING A WEDGE ON A BIG A SUNDERLAND WIN TO NIL
VERY SAD DAYS INDEED NOT GOING TO GAME BUT GOING TO DRINK FOR FREE AND DROWN MY SORROWS!
UTFG/STB
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 13:02:55 GMT
With the 2 previous managers it was beautifully clear what the team were trying to do except the period when DC lost his way. With garner we seem to play out from the back in a half hearted way but then abandon the idea and lump it. When we play 4-3-3 we usually employ 2 fast wide forwards like ginelly,mitchell-lawson or the quite fast rodman but they do not actually play wide but instead play narrow? The midfield are the same players that screened the defence under coughlan but no longer provide that? There is just no identity with the team under garner and nobody who interviews him seems to ask him how he would like his team to play. Actually, Clarke fumbled around with formations and weird tactics during the first half of all his seasons with us. I remember fans getting on his back over why he persisted with this instead of playing a simple 4-4-2, so it wasn't perfectly clear what he was trying to do either until well into the season. I liked Coughlan's 3-5-2 because it allows expansive football. His style was fast and furious, which gave the players energy and got them working hard all over the pitch putting their bodies on the line. It wasn't the finished article either as fans seemed to think. The window was looming and I'm pretty sure he would have brought in one or two players better suited to his style in order to step it up. We'll never know now but one thing's for sure, DC and GC seemed to know what they was doing and stuck to it stubbornly. Garner doesn't and is on a steep learning curve. Partly agree but i much i preferred the attacking football we played under clarke to the static negative stuff under coughlan. In fairness to coughlan the team were very well drilled and hard to beat though i never saw any expansive football except possibly right at the end of his time at the club. The club should have given maher/mansell a run of games in my view instead of rushing garner into the managers position. I still believe we do not know the whole story about coughlan leaving. |
|
irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
|
Post by irishrover on Mar 10, 2020 13:08:06 GMT
So I'm not going to defend Garner exactly because how can you defend a guy who has overseen a collapse from 4th with 1 win in 20 games? However, I do have some sympathy for the context he's working under. Whoever was the brains trust behind the appointment has set him up to fail. I was definitely a GC skeptic (and remain so). I didn't buy that we were a top 6 team, I didn't like the way we played and I could understand why people didn't like him and attendances had gone down etc. Having said that results are results and I thought those calling for his head were mad. Whatever it was we were riding to get us to 4th we needed to keep on riding it - it was our highest postion that late in the season for 20 years for crying outloud.
Instead we decide to appoint someone whose remit was clearly to change direction. What chance was there it was ever going to work or go down well? Straight away at MK Dons he came out and talked about how everything needed to change. There's no way that happens unless this was what the people who run our club had instructed or bought into this scorched earth approach. I blame them more than Garner for this. I think Garner is just doing he's been told to do (or told them he'd do) or he'd be gone already. Clearly he didn't think it would be quite this bad but it's pretty obvious to me that the aim was to use the luxury of our position in the league to change tack and that's clearly why he hasn't gone anywhere. We'd already waved the white flag on the season by appointing him under those circumstances. It's bizarre and that's what should piss us off as paying customers here. We had a chance here and the people who ran our club chose not to take it.
I can only go from what I saw and I did see improvements in the games at Bolton and Tranmere (2 admittedly very poor sides) where there seemed a clear strategy to move the ball more quickly through midfield, have more width up top etc. You could at least see what we were trying to achieve. I did see an attempt to impose a pattern of play. This 4-3-3 with the emphasis on trying to play through teams. At times I've seen it since and but more often we look a complete mess as we panic don't go anywhere and then resort to hoofing up field to no one. This is a very modern approach, it might well be where the game is going and maybe it could work with the right players although I think it's setting far too high a bar with what we have. So I do see what he's trying to do I think.....but I've come to the conclusion that it's being imposed in a totally flawed way. You can't change the way a team plays by transforming its front 3/4 players and leaving the rest untouched. It's like trying to put a whisk in a black and decker drill. Even if components are in decent shape it's just not going to work. Do I have any faith in Garner to turn this around from here? None whatsoever, the jury is now back in and the judge has put on the black cap. Do I have any faith in our owners to replace him? Absolutely not. It's a shambles of the highest order.
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Mar 10, 2020 16:18:37 GMT
This was clearly a case of The Fantasist being sold a dream of self-suffiency through recruiting and selling other clubs' U23 players. I thought that we had an Academy for that.
The club is shambolic at the moment and there is a tide of anger that is growing by the day.
I have never supported fan ownership of the Club, as I always preferred the dream being fulfilled by benevolent money men.
I plead guilty to being deluded by the faint prospect of AlQs leading us to the promised land. Now I would give anything to see him and the fraud called Garner disappear.
|
|
brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
|
Post by brizzle on Mar 10, 2020 16:24:56 GMT
I would love Geoff Twentyman to invite him on to having a gas so he can ask the man himself that very question. What’s more I am sure that Ben would be only too happy to explain to West Country sport’s equivalent of Jeremy Paxman what his ideas are, in detail, and why he has so far been unable to implement them. Get him on Geoff. I am sure we will all be converted afterwards.  |
|
harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5,412
|
Post by harrybuckle on Mar 10, 2020 16:31:30 GMT
And our so called fans/keyboard warriors slammed Trolls ...promotion via the Play offs, a national final against Donny and a quarter final fa cup tie against West Brom.
He developed into a fantastic coach and assisted Brighton with Chris Hughton. So young untried coaches can succeed just need an opportunity.
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Mar 10, 2020 16:42:58 GMT
Paul Trollope was very popular with the players, got everyone onside and hit the ground running.
Garner in contrast...?
|
|
|
|
Post by Mrs V Smegma on Mar 10, 2020 20:24:36 GMT
And our so called fans/keyboard warriors slammed Trolls ...promotion via the Play offs, a national final against Donny and a quarter final fa cup tie against West Brom. He developed into a fantastic coach and assisted Brighton with Chris Hughton. So young untried coaches can succeed just need an opportunity. Do you see any evidence that Benny will deliver anything similar or are you clinging on to blind faith that he will come good if given long enough? |
|
|
|
Post by Mrs V Smegma on Mar 10, 2020 20:42:41 GMT
So I'm not going to defend Garner exactly because how can you defend a guy who has overseen a collapse from 4th with 1 win in 20 games? However, I do have some sympathy for the context he's working under. Whoever was the brains trust behind the appointment has set him up to fail. I was definitely a GC skeptic (and remain so). I didn't buy that we were a top 6 team, I didn't like the way we played and I could understand why people didn't like him and attendances had gone down etc. Having said that results are results and I thought those calling for his head were mad. Whatever it was we were riding to get us to 4th we needed to keep on riding it - it was our highest postion that late in the season for 20 years for crying outloud.
Instead we decide to appoint someone whose remit was clearly to change direction. What chance was there it was ever going to work or go down well? Straight away at MK Dons he came out and talked about how everything needed to change. There's no way that happens unless this was what the people who run our club had instructed or bought into this scorched earth approach. I blame them more than Garner for this. I think Garner is just doing he's been told to do (or told them he'd do) or he'd be gone already. Clearly he didn't think it would be quite this bad but it's pretty obvious to me that the aim was to use the luxury of our position in the league to change tack and that's clearly why he hasn't gone anywhere. We'd already waved the white flag on the season by appointing him under those circumstances. It's bizarre and that's what should piss us off as paying customers here. We had a chance here and the people who ran our club chose not to take it.
I can only go from what I saw and I did see improvements in the games at Bolton and Tranmere (2 admittedly very poor sides) where there seemed a clear strategy to move the ball more quickly through midfield, have more width up top etc. You could at least see what we were trying to achieve. I did see an attempt to impose a pattern of play. This 4-3-3 with the emphasis on trying to play through teams. At times I've seen it since and but more often we look a complete mess as we panic don't go anywhere and then resort to hoofing up field to no one. This is a very modern approach, it might well be where the game is going and maybe it could work with the right players although I think it's setting far too high a bar with what we have. So I do see what he's trying to do I think.....but I've come to the conclusion that it's being imposed in a totally flawed way. You can't change the way a team plays by transforming its front 3/4 players and leaving the rest untouched. It's like trying to put a whisk in a black and decker drill. Even if components are in decent shape it's just not going to work. Do I have any faith in Garner to turn this around from here? None whatsoever, the jury is now back in and the judge has put on the black cap. Do I have any faith in our owners to replace him? Absolutely not. It's a shambles of the highest order.
Excellent post Irish. I wasn’t at either Bolton or Tranmere so can’t comment on how we performed there. Vertigo is on the money in my opinion - when I’ve seen 4 3 3 tried we play narrow up top with no width which as you’ve identified defeats the object and just creates congestion. It also then looks nothing like a 4 3 3. It’s the other weird formations that stick in my mind and I have absolutely no clue what the game plan has been behind this. Maybe if Benny explained his thinking we would be able to get behind it a bit more. You are also right that it is the owners to blame for our season unravelling and that Benny is either doing as instructed or as he said he would. To change the spine of the team would mean an almost entire dismantling of the whole squad and that feels completely unnecessary given where we were under GC. As I said above give me 4 4 2 any day over 4 3 3. I do also think that to do this in our circumstances shows a complete lack of understanding of what works at this level and can only be the masterplan of someone completely out of their depth |
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 21:11:20 GMT
As 4-2-3-1 is the new 4-4-2,
So 4-3-2-1 is the new 4-3-3.
|
|
