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Post by stevek192 on Mar 2, 2020 10:30:05 GMT
It is an absolute joke that with just one win in 17 and that was against ten players for half the game that the same players appear week in week out. Why bring players in Mr garner if you aren't going to play them? Ollie Clarke and Leahy are IMO total liabilities and are like playing with nine men.2 wingers are both a waste of space because our midfield are not capable of bringing them into the game so all they get as regards service is the boot ups from our defenders and goalkeeper! Personally assuming JCH is injured on Saturday I would go to attack Southend and press up on their defence
Blackman
O Hare or Little Kilgour Harries THD
Bennett Barrett Upson Mitchell-Lawson or Ginnelli
Rodman Daly
subs- Any of whats left!
Without any of the slow ones left in the back four we can afford to press from the front and push up
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Mar 2, 2020 10:59:24 GMT
Steve - I don't think that the formation matters.
The record provides irrefutable evidence that Garner does not have what it takes to trade in the only stock that matters - results.
It is now beyond a joke. When the Manager states that he will go back and review the Training to see why the Training performance did not translate into what we saw against Shrewsbury, then we know that we have a Manager obsessed with the means and not the ends.
Nice guy, probably a decent coach, but not a Manager.
Remove him now, spare any future embarrassment for all parties and make Chris Hargreaves caretaker manager until end of season.
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trunky
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 230
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Post by trunky on Mar 2, 2020 11:09:05 GMT
I agree tactics and formation will not make a jot of difference, we have a very average squad and an inexperienced manager who doesent have a clue how to get the best out of them, the worry for me is I cant see anything changing for some considerable time.
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simonj
Archie Stevens
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 816
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Post by simonj on Mar 2, 2020 11:09:45 GMT
Steve, I was very keen this week to watch and also observe the crowd reactions re Upson v Clarke. IMO, and its all about opinions, I think Clarke has more of an engine, tackle and offers more box to box. I also agree wholeheartedly though that Upson, Clarke and Ogogo and the combinations don't work. And its time to change this.
Whenever Clarke did something, lets say negative, some individuals in the crowd were on him, when Upson did likewise not the same reaction. Some players we maybe expect more from. I see nothing in Upson that gets him a game week in week out, but I do in Clarke. Opinions, and you see it the other way. What we can agree on is the midfield is dire and I agree with you the formation is poor, and persevering with it, will lose Ben Garner his job. I disliked Coughlans football, but I have to say Saturday was as bad as it can be.
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TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,281
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Post by TaiwanGas on Mar 2, 2020 11:32:36 GMT
I like both our young guns Ginnelly and Mitchell-Lawson, but I wonder if both should play as they are struggling to stay upright in a division full of gnarly old seasoned Vets who despatch them to the greenery far too easily.
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Post by fatherjackhackett on Mar 2, 2020 11:35:54 GMT
We don’t have the chance layers for 4-4-2.
Three centre backs and wing backs is what the squad is set up for. Sercombe is usually at his best behind a front two. Two ball winners in the centre, something we don’t have at the moment.
Worked more often than not under GC.
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Post by Curly Wurly on Mar 2, 2020 12:51:05 GMT
We don’t have the chance layers for 4-4-2. Three centre backs and wing backs is what the squad is set up for. Sercombe is usually at his best behind a front two. Two ball winners in the centre, something we don’t have at the moment. Worked more often than not under GC. I agree. On formation, I would suggest that we are better reverting to the 5-3-2 or 3-5-2 that Coughlan employed to great effect during the majority of his tenure. In my opinion, we will always struggle with 4 at the back because we don't have the personnel in the club to play a traditional full back role. 3 central defenders allows us to be more compact and doesn't mean that we are exposed for pace, but we also seem less sure on crosses and struggle against a pressing midfield. We do have wing backs and 3 at the back allows them to get forward and provide much more width to our play. On Saturday, we struggled for width, even though we had Mitchell-Lawson and Ginelly on as wingers, because we reverted to the most basic and futile long-ball to JCH (even worse when Abraham came on). Our midfield were completely bypassed, but were also not able to pick up on the second ball from the inevitable defensive headers that the Shrews central defenders made, time after time. I would usually be one to argue that a manager be given time, but there is no evidence of any improvement in pattern of play under Garner. We are reverting to the most basic, least sophisticated methods, but worse than that, it seems as if we are doing it without any heart. Regrettably, I think that we are well beyond anything that a simple formation change. Winning, like losing is habit. In my opinion, it is almost impossible for Ben Garner to turn our current losing mentality around himself.
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Post by laughinggas on Mar 2, 2020 16:03:39 GMT
We only appear to have one fit wing back, or full back come to that and that's Leahy. Little, THD, Hare all seem to be injured or recovering. No idea what has happened to Kelly or Hoole. Rodman not convincing there, or anywhere come to that.
Seems to mess us in a back 4 or 5.
3 4 3 anybody? Get the energetic players in, what happened to Russe and Hargreaves?
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Post by mangogas15 on Mar 2, 2020 16:57:26 GMT
Formation suits the players at 3-5-2.
I said this after the Coventry away defeat in September and it was proven right, because we can flood midfield and get numbers back, but also be 3-3-4 when we have the ball.
It worked.
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harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5,394
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Post by harrybuckle on Mar 2, 2020 17:16:31 GMT
Some interesting stats below to ponder. Team wise it appears Mark Little and T Holmes Dennis can barely play two matches in a row. The loss of Chris Lines has proven to be significant as we have just ball winning midfielders and if fit Sercombe can provide some forward threat. The fact that home and away we play JCH upfront on his own is poor. It appears Reilly is now not required. The signing of Abraham could prove unwise as he is out of his depth. Daly looked useful in his short cameo and needs minutes starting at Roots Hall on Saturday.
Season 1965/66 Bert Tann Manager
1 Win in 16 (all competitions)
1 Win in 15 (League)
Season 1980/81 Terry Cooper Manager
1 Win in 20 (all competitions)
*(Although we won a cup game on pens so technically it's 1 Win in 18)
1 Win in 29 (League)
Season 2001/02 Manager Garry Thompson Manager
1 Win in 15 (all competitions)
1 Win in 16 (League)
Season 2019/20 Ben Garner Manager
1 Win in 17 (all competitions)
1 Win in 14 (League)
We would need go some to beat the 1965/66 no win in the league, as this would have to run into next season.
However, if we fail to beat Southend United this weekend then it would equal a "no win" in a stretch of games.
Hope these stats help you out in any way.
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Post by toteend3 on Mar 2, 2020 18:01:29 GMT
Some interesting stats below to ponder. Team wise it appears Mark Little and T Holmes Dennis can barely play two matches in a row. The loss of Chris Lines has proven to be significant as we have just ball winning midfielders and if fit Sercombe can provide some forward threat. The fact that home and away we play JCH upfront on his own is poor. It appears Reilly is now not required. The signing of Abraham could prove unwise as he is out of his depth. Daly looked useful in his short cameo and needs minutes starting at Roots Hall on Saturday. Season 1965/66 Bert Tann Manager 1 Win in 16 (all competitions) 1 Win in 15 (League) Season 1980/81 Terry Cooper Manager 1 Win in 20 (all competitions) *(Although we won a cup game on pens so technically it's 1 Win in 18) 1 Win in 29 (League) Season 2001/02 Manager Garry Thompson Manager 1 Win in 15 (all competitions) 1 Win in 16 (League) Season 2019/20 Ben Garner Manager 1 Win in 17 (all competitions) 1 Win in 14 (League) We would need go some to beat the 1965/66 no win in the league, as this would have to run into next season. However, if we fail to beat Southend United this weekend then it would equal a "no win" in a stretch of games. Hope these stats help you out in any way. There you go! - What on earth have we been worried about! - BG's on a pretty impressive run!
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Mar 2, 2020 20:46:14 GMT
Whatever formation or selection,if the Managers strategic message fails to be understood by 'the lads',individually and as a team,they will seriously struggle to win football matches.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Mar 2, 2020 20:53:32 GMT
Steve, I was very keen this week to watch and also observe the crowd reactions re Upson v Clarke. IMO, and its all about opinions, I think Clarke has more of an engine, tackle and offers more box to box. I also agree wholeheartedly though that Upson, Clarke and Ogogo and the combinations don't work. And its time to change this. Whenever Clarke did something, lets say negative, some individuals in the crowd were on him, when Upson did likewise not the same reaction. Some players we maybe expect more from. I see nothing in Upson that gets him a game week in week out, but I do in Clarke. Opinions, and you see it the other way. What we can agree on is the midfield is dire and I agree with you the formation is poor, and persevering with it, will lose Ben Garner his job. I disliked Coughlans football, but I have to say Saturday was as bad as it can be. Just about how I see it too. Anyone who has played enough games themselves will surely see that Ollie Clarke does a lot of the dirty stuff in breaking up play and is more of a goal threat than upson from outside the box. I would agree that form wise he hasn't been as good as in the past two seasons but this one has been quite interrupted because of suspensions ( some his fault, others not) and injuries. Just as he is getting back into his stride he is out of the side again. He’s also been pretty much of a first choice for all the managers we've had over the past 3 seasons. Ive seen nothing in Upson to think he merits a place in the team. The 3 of them including Ogogo together usually don't work though
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Mar 2, 2020 20:56:52 GMT
I also wouldn't have Bennett anywhere near the team. A triumph of style over substance. Looks busy and buzzes around a lot but zero end product
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Post by stevek192 on Mar 2, 2020 21:49:02 GMT
SimonJ, Beg to differ but I see Upson doing the majority of the dirty work and Ollie Clarke wandering around trying hard not to get involved and do anything and that has been the case all season. As regards Clarke being more dangerous outside the box how many goals has Ollie Clarke scored this season compared to Upson. The problem we have is that as I see it all the midfield are attempting to do the dirty work and no one is doing the creative work.Also as regards the Upson/Clarke comparison check the marks given and you will find Ollie Clarke rarely getting a higher mark than Upson. As regards the back three whilst the players may suit it more it is a fact that in most of the away games since Christmas we have been torn apart because teams play with wide players and when our central defenders are dragged out none of them are that capable of doing the full back job. Although at Sunderland we did pretty well until Ogogo was sent off the signs were already there in the first half that their wingers were going to be key and quite a few times the wingers came right into the box.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Mar 2, 2020 22:01:02 GMT
Ollie Clarke
Two footed,can pass,tackle,head and shoot. Supports attack and defence.
He never goes missing.
He,like all footballers need to take the field understanding his own job and how it fits into the team effort.
Couglan got the best out of him (and others).
Garner lacks the ability to do this.
I don't blame the Captain (I respect and rate him),our goal scorer or left back.
The problem is the Manager.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Mar 2, 2020 23:57:01 GMT
SimonJ, Beg to differ but I see Upson doing the majority of the dirty work and Ollie Clarke wandering around trying hard not to get involved and do anything and that has been the case all season. As regards Clarke being more dangerous outside the box how many goals has Ollie Clarke scored this season compared to Upson. The problem we have is that as I see it all the midfield are attempting to do the dirty work and no one is doing the creative work.Also as regards the Upson/Clarke comparison check the marks given and you will find Ollie Clarke rarely getting a higher mark than Upson. As regards the back three whilst the players may suit it more it is a fact that in most of the away games since Christmas we have been torn apart because teams play with wide players and when our central defenders are dragged out none of them are that capable of doing the full back job. Although at Sunderland we did pretty well until Ogogo was sent off the signs were already there in the first half that their wingers were going to be key and quite a few times the wingers came right into the box. According to the BBC Upson has scored 2 and Ollie 1. Ollie has 2 assists, Upson 0. Ollie has also had many more shots than Upson (34 to 23) albeit a higher proportion off target. but in significantly less pitch time (2000 mins as opposed to Upson’s 2700). I know you can prove anything by stats but these tend to suggest Ollie has more impact offensively than Upson. I’d contend this is a more reliable indicator than your marking scheme as you clearly have a bias in favour of Upson over Clarke. I’m probably as guilty the other way around but I honestly don’t see what Upson brings to the party. OC every time for me and would be one of the first names on the team sheet week in week out in my opinion.
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Post by laughinggas on Mar 3, 2020 7:05:30 GMT
Fair few thought it was Craig that had a header that hit the bar, was Clarke!
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Post by stevek192 on Mar 3, 2020 10:54:05 GMT
Mrs V Smegma, I was not referring to MY harks for games I was referring to the player ratings on Gas Chat from a wide variety of Supporters. If you honestly think that Ollie Clarke has been anything other than a liability this season then I would suggest that you must be one of the "one of our own brigade"- he has been bloody awful and I have seen the majority of the games. I am not saying Upson has been that good particularly recently but definitely far better than Ollie who IMO is a League 2 player at best. The more shots you hhave do not mean that you are the better offensive player as if you consider 1 goal from 34 attempts indicates this then god hhelp us. Referring to Basels post- Are you having a laugh? Ollie Clarke
Two footed- yes he has two feet I will admit that!!
can pass- rubbish his passing is very poor tackle- Agree but once he has been booked this ability can no longer be effective head- not convinced he can head a ball and am sure that Upson wins far more in the air but neither are particularly good. shoot- Very erratic this season and IMO it was the only reason he was in the team in previous seasons because he had about a 1 in 5 games goal record
Supports attack and defence- He doesn't want the ball and goes missing both defensively and attacking. Ogogo is the closest to this description but NONE of our midfield are particularly good at supporting offensively
He never goes missing. Now you are really having a laugh!!
He,like all footballers need to take the field understanding his own job and how it fits into the team effort- No he has to take to the field and do the job he has been asked by the Manager to do.
Couglan got the best out of him (and others).- Coughlan got very little out of him this season as he was no better under Coughlan than he is now under BG. DC was the only Manager that got the best out of him
Garner lacks the ability to do this- Garner unfortunately wants players to be good footballers and IMO we have too many who cannot and will not ever be anything other than average League 2 players
I don't blame the Captain (I respect and rate him),our goal scorer or left back. So you don't think the players are to blame at all? The manager cannot make a player make a good or bad pass or be bothered to run about and mark players. Once they go on the pitch it is down to them.
The problem is the Manager- Not convinced totally with this but he is certainly not helping things at the moment. We will only really know if he is given the chance to get rid of the players who are not good enough to play his way although I have to say that I don't like his way of playing at the moment because one up front is not the answer and if we continue with these tactics then we won't get many more points this season and will be relegated next.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Mar 3, 2020 11:34:01 GMT
Mrs V Smegma, I was not referring to MY harks for games I was referring to the player ratings on Gas Chat from a wide variety of Supporters. If you honestly think that Ollie Clarke has been anything other than a liability this season then I would suggest that you must be one of the "one of our own brigade"- he has been bloody awful and I have seen the majority of the games. I am not saying Upson has been that good particularly recently but definitely far better than Ollie who IMO is a League 2 player at best. The more shots you hhave do not mean that you are the better offensive player as if you consider 1 goal from 34 attempts indicates this then god hhelp us. Referring to Basels post- Are you having a laugh? Ollie Clarke Two footed- yes he has two feet I will admit that!! can pass- rubbish his passing is very poor tackle- Agree but once he has been booked this ability can no longer be effective head- not convinced he can head a ball and am sure that Upson wins far more in the air but neither are particularly good. shoot- Very erratic this season and IMO it was the only reason he was in the team in previous seasons because he had about a 1 in 5 games goal record Supports attack and defence- He doesn't want the ball and goes missing both defensively and attacking. Ogogo is the closest to this description but NONE of our midfield are particularly good at supporting offensively He never goes missing. Now you are really having a laugh!! He,like all footballers need to take the field understanding his own job and how it fits into the team effort- No he has to take to the field and do the job he has been asked by the Manager to do. Couglan got the best out of him (and others).- Coughlan got very little out of him this season as he was no better under Coughlan than he is now under BG. DC was the only Manager that got the best out of him Garner lacks the ability to do this- Garner unfortunately wants players to be good footballers and IMO we have too many who cannot and will not ever be anything other than average League 2 players I don't blame the Captain (I respect and rate him),our goal scorer or left back. So you don't think the players are to blame at all? The manager cannot make a player make a good or bad pass or be bothered to run about and mark players. Once they go on the pitch it is down to them. The problem is the Manager- Not convinced totally with this but he is certainly not helping things at the moment. We will only really know if he is given the chance to get rid of the players who are not good enough to play his way although I have to say that I don't like his way of playing at the moment because one up front is not the answer and if we continue with these tactics then we won't get many more points this season and will be relegated next. We disagree and see the game differently. Fair enough.
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