Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
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Post by Peter Parker on Sept 17, 2020 7:31:48 GMT
There are two things here.
Swiss is right about the statement being premature, but I think thats about it.
In Wael's mind, when he said it, it was done even if not formalised
And thats all there is to this story
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Post by a more piratey game on Sept 17, 2020 8:00:24 GMT
There are two things here. Swiss is right about the statement being premature, but I think thats about it. In Wael's mind, when he said it, it was done even if not formalised And thats all there is to this story I think you are right. But there is also a lesson there for Wael and the club We have been fed decades of usually well-meaning nonsense from the owners or leaders (choose your seat at Cheltenham etc etc etc) Hamer, under Wael's presidency, sometimes added to this, as had Wael himself (the 'car crash' interview with 20p, the statement that he thought we'd be playing in a new stadium in 2 years etc) So fans are not minded to trust easily, and swiss takes the trouble to check things out So while I'm very enthused by the debt write-off, the training ground, the develop-the-youth strategy, the coherent leadership team and garnerball, I think Wael and BRFC might benefit from words being chosen more carefully
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 15:21:44 GMT
There are two things here. Swiss is right about the statement being premature, but I think thats about it. In Wael's mind, when he said it, it was done even if not formalised And thats all there is to this story I think that's spot on. Basically there is no story really, although some may want to make out there is purely to paint Wael in a poor light. Almost clutching at straws
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Rex
Predictions League
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Post by Rex on Sept 17, 2020 15:36:27 GMT
There are two things here. Swiss is right about the statement being premature, but I think thats about it. In Wael's mind, when he said it, it was done even if not formalised And thats all there is to this story I think you are right. But there is also a lesson there for Wael and the club We have been fed decades of usually well-meaning nonsense from the owners or leaders (choose your seat at Cheltenham etc etc etc)Hamer, under Wael's presidency, sometimes added to this, as had Wael himself (the 'car crash' interview with 20p, the statement that he thought we'd be playing in a new stadium in 2 years etc) So fans are not minded to trust easily, and swiss takes the trouble to check things out So while I'm very enthused by the debt write-off, the training ground, the develop-the-youth strategy, the coherent leadership team and garnerball, I think Wael and BRFC might benefit from words being chosen more carefully Considering that they were happy to continue selling coach seats to 'go and pick your seat at Cheltenham' when they knew the deal was off, I'm not sure 'well meaning' covers that particular shabby little episode. Lying or thieving b'stards would be more appropriate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 15:46:57 GMT
There are two things here. Swiss is right about the statement being premature, but I think thats about it. In Wael's mind, when he said it, it was done even if not formalised And thats all there is to this story I think that's spot on. Basically there is no story really, although some may want to make out there is purely to paint Wael in a poor light. Almost clutching at straws That's what I think
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 23:01:39 GMT
That's not what I think.
If a man wants my trust, especially a BRFC owner, then he ought to start defining what he has done from what he plans to do specifically, and distinctly.
Previous owners have broken promises and promised what they couldn't deliver. Swiss Diligence is not making up a story. He's differentiating facts from stated intentions, and action from planning.
Please don't stop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 23:14:29 GMT
That's not what I think. If a man wants my trust, especially a BRFC owner, then he ought to start defining what he has done from what he plans to do specifically, and distinctly. Previous owners have broken promises and promised what they couldn't deliver. Swiss Diligence is not making up a story. He's differentiating facts from stated intentions, and action from planning. Please don't stop. Swiss won't stop, he knows that he's right. Choose your horse in this race; I'm with Swiss. Let's see how it plays out. We've already learned in the last couple of days that the charge on the stadium is staying in place. This isn't going to end well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 8:33:02 GMT
That's not what I think. If a man wants my trust, especially a BRFC owner, then he ought to start defining what he has done from what he plans to do specifically, and distinctly. Previous owners have broken promises and promised what they couldn't deliver. Swiss Diligence is not making up a story. He's differentiating facts from stated intentions, and action from planning. Please don't stop. Swiss won't stop, he knows that he's right. Choose your horse in this race; I'm with Swiss. Let's see how it plays out. We've already learned in the last couple of days that the charge on the stadium is staying in place. This isn't going to end well. Yeah, I get that. But as you said previously none of this makes much difference. As far as the optics go, yeah it's a bit lazy, not making clear that the actual technical event of converting debt to equity could not happen until the EGM had approved the increase in uncalled share capital. In this thread someone said that Wael (or club spokesman) said it couldn't happen until the AGM, which is not right as only an EGM can approve this resolution. They could have called an EGM at anytime, but I guess they intend to tack it on to the AGM. So, in reality, it's about expectation management and they really do need to better. If they don't you get the conspiracy theorists pontificating, even when some like Swiss should know better, and sowing the seeds of division.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 8:41:18 GMT
Swiss won't stop, he knows that he's right. Choose your horse in this race; I'm with Swiss. Let's see how it plays out. We've already learned in the last couple of days that the charge on the stadium is staying in place. This isn't going to end well. Yeah, I get that. But as you said previously none of this makes much difference. As far as the optics go, yeah it's a bit lazy, not making clear that the actual technical event of converting debt to equity could not happen until the EGM had approved the increase in uncalled share capital. In this thread someone said that Wael (or club spokesman) said it couldn't happen until the AGM, which is not right as only an EGM can approve this resolution. They could have called an EGM at anytime, but I guess they intend to tack it on to the AGM. So, in reality, it's about expectation management and they really do need to better. If they don't you get the conspiracy theorists pontificating, even when some like Swiss should know better, and sowing the seeds of division. I don't see any pontificating, just pure factual analysis, which in the case of Swiss, so far, has been spot on. He called Wael out as a fantasist before I did, I was still defending the bloke. Can we do anything about it? Nope, not a thing, but that doesn't mean we should pretend that the situation is something that it's not. As for division, again, that's a decision for the individual, anybody can just ignore Swiss, and plenty will, but there's a pattern here and one which I can't quite understand. How long did Jim say that the SC had to chase the FC for share certificates, I think it was years rather than months wasn't it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 9:47:04 GMT
Yeah, I get that. But as you said previously none of this makes much difference. As far as the optics go, yeah it's a bit lazy, not making clear that the actual technical event of converting debt to equity could not happen until the EGM had approved the increase in uncalled share capital. In this thread someone said that Wael (or club spokesman) said it couldn't happen until the AGM, which is not right as only an EGM can approve this resolution. They could have called an EGM at anytime, but I guess they intend to tack it on to the AGM. So, in reality, it's about expectation management and they really do need to better. If they don't you get the conspiracy theorists pontificating, even when some like Swiss should know better, and sowing the seeds of division. I don't see any pontificating, just pure factual analysis, which in the case of Swiss, so far, has been spot on. He called Wael out as a fantasist before I did, I was still defending the bloke. Can we do anything about it? Nope, not a thing, but that doesn't mean we should pretend that the situation is something that it's not. As for division, again, that's a decision for the individual, anybody can just ignore Swiss, and plenty will, but there's a pattern here and one which I can't quite understand. How long did Jim say that the SC had to chase the FC for share certificates, I think it was years rather than months wasn't it? Yes, perhaps. But for me it is about optics. The share certificates for the SC is a case in point. Once the money is transferred from the SC to the FC then as long as the share capital ownership is reflected at Companies House then the actual issuance of the certificate is mere to window dressing. As an example I own share capital in the company that owns the building I live in. I moved in Feb 2016, I received the certificate last Friday. Was I concerned? Not at all as I checked Companies House at the end of the first fiscal year I bought. It's all a load of flannel
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 9:57:34 GMT
Have to say, I perceive a change of attitude here.
You've spent the thick end of 20 years complaining bitterly that there was insufficient diligence and procedure wasn't followed with regard to the Share Scheme, now you are acting like some 1960's kaftan clad hippy sat under a tree, hubble bubble in hand, strumming away on a second hand guitar, without a care in the world.
I like the new Oldie more than the old Oldie.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 10:28:36 GMT
Have to say, I perceive a change of attitude here. You've spent the thick end of 20 years complaining bitterly that there was insufficient diligence and procedure wasn't followed with regard to the Share Scheme, now you are acting like some 1960's kaftan clad hippy sat under a tree, hubble bubble in hand, strumming away on a second hand guitar, without a care in the world. I like the new Oldie more than the old Oldie. No I haven't changed my perspective, in many ways I would contend that it was the ineptitude, lack of ability and plain ignorance that stopped the ability of the scheme being able to properly and effectively represent the fan base at the executive of the club. (Don't invoke John, he was on our side of the table). But it's over, no need to carp on about it (yes I have a bit, previously). The point is that there is no point now. I don't see the point in trying to call the owner out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 10:48:33 GMT
Have to say, I perceive a change of attitude here. You've spent the thick end of 20 years complaining bitterly that there was insufficient diligence and procedure wasn't followed with regard to the Share Scheme, now you are acting like some 1960's kaftan clad hippy sat under a tree, hubble bubble in hand, strumming away on a second hand guitar, without a care in the world. I like the new Oldie more than the old Oldie. No I haven't changed my perspective, in many ways I would contend that it was the ineptitude, lack of ability and plain ignorance that stopped the ability of the scheme being able to properly and effectively represent the fan base at the executive of the club. (Don't invoke John, he was on our side of the table). But it's over, no need to carp on about it (yes I have a bit, previously). The point is that there is no point now. I don't see the point in trying to call the owner out. At the risk of boring everybody stupid, and even possibly falling foul of the forum rules that epping kindly reminded us of just this morning, if as you claim, John was on your side, why does it always end up in an argument between the two of you every time it's discussed on forums? Swiss is doing a great job analysing information, he's a damn sight better at it than anybody else on here. What can we do with that information? Understand how the club is being run is my best answer, and to me that's useful, so thanks Swiss, please keep it up.
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Sept 18, 2020 10:57:57 GMT
No I haven't changed my perspective, in many ways I would contend that it was the ineptitude, lack of ability and plain ignorance that stopped the ability of the scheme being able to properly and effectively represent the fan base at the executive of the club. (Don't invoke John, he was on our side of the table). But it's over, no need to carp on about it (yes I have a bit, previously). The point is that there is no point now. I don't see the point in trying to call the owner out. At the risk of boring everybody stupid, and even possibly falling foul of the forum rules that epping kindly reminded us of just this morning, if as you claim, John was on your side, why does it always end up in an argument between the two of you every time it's discussed on forums? Swiss is doing a great job analysing information, he's a damn sight better at it than anybody else on here. What can we do with that information? Understand how the club is being run is my best answer, and to me that's useful, so thanks Swiss, please keep it up. Has he? I must have missed that then.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 11:00:43 GMT
At the risk of boring everybody stupid, and even possibly falling foul of the forum rules that epping kindly reminded us of just this morning, if as you claim, John was on your side, why does it always end up in an argument between the two of you every time it's discussed on forums? Swiss is doing a great job analysing information, he's a damn sight better at it than anybody else on here. What can we do with that information? Understand how the club is being run is my best answer, and to me that's useful, so thanks Swiss, please keep it up. Has he? I must have missed that then. Top of this section, pinned post. No idea who it's aimed at though? Good to see epping still active, was worried that he had a change of heart and we had lost our main Admin dude.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 11:18:10 GMT
No I haven't changed my perspective, in many ways I would contend that it was the ineptitude, lack of ability and plain ignorance that stopped the ability of the scheme being able to properly and effectively represent the fan base at the executive of the club. (Don't invoke John, he was on our side of the table). But it's over, no need to carp on about it (yes I have a bit, previously). The point is that there is no point now. I don't see the point in trying to call the owner out. At the risk of boring everybody stupid, and even possibly falling foul of the forum rules that epping kindly reminded us of just this morning, if as you claim, John was on your side, why does it always end up in an argument between the two of you every time it's discussed on forums? Swiss is doing a great job analysing information, he's a damn sight better at it than anybody else on here. What can we do with that information? Understand how the club is being run is my best answer, and to me that's useful, so thanks Swiss, please keep it up. Just a quickie on that. Was always a huge supporter of John, we don't argue, he never totally agreed with my perspective, but that's fine. We both wanted the same thing, that's all that counted at the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 15:04:21 GMT
Swiss won't stop, he knows that he's right. Choose your horse in this race; I'm with Swiss. Let's see how it plays out. We've already learned in the last couple of days that the charge on the stadium is staying in place. This isn't going to end well. Yeah, I get that. But as you said previously none of this makes much difference. As far as the optics go, yeah it's a bit lazy, not making clear that the actual technical event of converting debt to equity could not happen until the EGM had approved the increase in uncalled share capital. In this thread someone said that Wael (or club spokesman) said it couldn't happen until the AGM, which is not right as only an EGM can approve this resolution. They could have called an EGM at anytime, but I guess they intend to tack it on to the AGM. So, in reality, it's about expectation management and they really do need to better. If they don't you get the conspiracy theorists pontificating, even when some like Swiss should know better, and sowing the seeds of division. It is indeed sowing the seeds of division. Some might even call it sh*t stirring. Swiss may well have been involved with the board 30 years ago and should be respected for that. But times have changed. Those were the days when you could sell Martyn & Penrice for £1.5m, use the income from high interest rates to help fund the club, pay the players peanuts and somehow survive. (And what a fantastic job we did) But you cant do that now, if you tried to run a balanced budget you would be in Conf South. Factor in the lack of opportunities because of the Mem and its even worse for us. Fund by debt, loans, share capitalisation whatever, thats the only game in town, so be careful what you wish for when knocking Wael every bloody chance. But not many are listening thankfully. And for what its worth, the strategy now makes sense (IMHO) - we have a commercial guy who has dragged the club from the days of Boycie having to negotiate Snack box shirt sponsorship in his lunchtime to what is now a professionally run organisation. Commercial income is considerably up. Well done Tom, keep it up and remember Bamber is clearly a wind up merchant.
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kingswood Polak
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Post by kingswood Polak on Sept 18, 2020 15:56:21 GMT
Yeah, I get that. But as you said previously none of this makes much difference. As far as the optics go, yeah it's a bit lazy, not making clear that the actual technical event of converting debt to equity could not happen until the EGM had approved the increase in uncalled share capital. In this thread someone said that Wael (or club spokesman) said it couldn't happen until the AGM, which is not right as only an EGM can approve this resolution. They could have called an EGM at anytime, but I guess they intend to tack it on to the AGM. So, in reality, it's about expectation management and they really do need to better. If they don't you get the conspiracy theorists pontificating, even when some like Swiss should know better, and sowing the seeds of division. It is indeed sowing the seeds of division. Some might even call it sh*t stirring. Swiss may well have been involved with the board 30 years ago and should be respected for that. But times have changed. Those were the days when you could sell Martyn & Penrice for £1.5m, use the income from high interest rates to help fund the club, pay the players peanuts and somehow survive. (And what a fantastic job we did) But you cant do that now, if you tried to run a balanced budget you would be in Conf South. Factor in the lack of opportunities because of the Mem and its even worse for us. Fund by debt, loans, share capitalisation whatever, thats the only game in town, so be careful what you wish for when knocking Wael every bloody chance. But not many are listening thankfully. And for what its worth, the strategy now makes sense (IMHO) - we have a commercial guy who has dragged the club from the days of Boycie having to negotiate Snack box shirt sponsorship in his lunchtime to what is now a professionally run organisation. Commercial income is considerably up. Well done Tom, keep it up and remember Bamber is clearly a wind up merchant. Totalny disagree on BG being a WUM. I don’t see anything wrong in questioning statements that had not been fulfilled. I think you will find Wael get info from both forums via a third party. I wish he would join in, as I’m told Geoff Dunford used to. we now really do have all of our eggs in one basket. It doesn’t really matter what we write as he will do as he sees fit
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Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
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Post by Peter Parker on Sept 18, 2020 16:48:53 GMT
Swiss might be dealing in facts, but he is also adding a pinch of supposition
And even if the charge remains on The Mem, what has changed? Dwane own the club and can do what they want, anytime they want. The only difference is, it's down to Wael (and his accountant) and not the rest of the family
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eppinggas
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Ian Alexander
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Post by eppinggas on Sept 18, 2020 17:36:26 GMT
Has he? I must have missed that then. Top of this section, pinned post. No idea who it's aimed at though? Good to see epping still active, was worried that he had a change of heart and we had lost our main Admin dude. Not aimed at anyone Bamber. The reminder about 'rules' had slipped off and a proper grown up alerted me to it. Just had a bit of a break...
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