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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Sept 29, 2020 5:30:42 GMT
Sunderland didn’t turn up. I listened to the game and Sunderland sounded very lacklustre. I’m not sure they are a very professional club and they are suffering from a “Bertie big bollocks” malaise. If they played to their potential they would blow a Ben Garner side away. Yet they rolled over meekly at the mem and took an age to get going at the Stadium of light at the start of the season. Contrast that with the other big club at our level, Ipswich, who have done two very professional jobs on Garner in the last few weeks. I’ve also heard it said that the defeat at the mem was what caused Sunderland to lose out on the play offs by PPG. If you had told the Sunderland team that night before the game that this was the last game they would play before PPG was used to decide their fate do you still think we would have beaten them 3-0? No, neither do I. Imo Garner has yet to beat a team that has turned up and played to the best of their ability. Lots of people are eyeing up Northampton as an easy three points for Garner but for my money if Curle can get Northampton pumped up for this game (and given their results so far they have every reason to be up for it) then they should at least come away with a draw. Our defence is so powder puff that we’ll give away plenty of chances if Northampton take the game to us. Yes,I think there's something in what you say about Sunderland, in our 2 0 win. A mate seemed to think some of our senior players had a chat together and with BG and it was decided a more CG style was the way to play for that game.I wondered if anyone else had heard similar? Unverified, but heard similar! Maybe started off by the same person?! After the most woeful Southend performance, a definite change was needed..
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 9:43:39 GMT
Sunderland didn’t turn up. I listened to the game and Sunderland sounded very lacklustre. I’m not sure they are a very professional club and they are suffering from a “Bertie big bollocks” malaise. If they played to their potential they would blow a Ben Garner side away. Yet they rolled over meekly at the mem and took an age to get going at the Stadium of light at the start of the season. Contrast that with the other big club at our level, Ipswich, who have done two very professional jobs on Garner in the last few weeks. I’ve also heard it said that the defeat at the mem was what caused Sunderland to lose out on the play offs by PPG. If you had told the Sunderland team that night before the game that this was the last game they would play before PPG was used to decide their fate do you still think we would have beaten them 3-0? No, neither do I. Imo Garner has yet to beat a team that has turned up and played to the best of their ability. Lots of people are eyeing up Northampton as an easy three points for Garner but for my money if Curle can get Northampton pumped up for this game (and given their results so far they have every reason to be up for it) then they should at least come away with a draw. Our defence is so powder puff that we’ll give away plenty of chances if Northampton take the game to us. Yes,I think there's something in what you say about Sunderland, in our 2 0 win. A mate seemed to think some of our senior players had a chat together and with BG and it was decided a more CG style was the way to play for that game.I wondered if anyone else had heard similar? I’ve heard people attribute it to Craig’s 600th game and the players reverting to Coughlan ball for one night only. Whatever they did they were up for it but Sunderland didn’t seem to be at all. And yes, my bad, I’ve just looked it up and it was 2-0, I thought our dominance was reflected more in the scoreline.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 10:30:41 GMT
Yes,I think there's something in what you say about Sunderland, in our 2 0 win. A mate seemed to think some of our senior players had a chat together and with BG and it was decided a more CG style was the way to play for that game.I wondered if anyone else had heard similar? Unverified, but heard similar! Maybe started off by the same person?! After the most woeful Southend performance, a definite change was needed.. Even if that's true, we no longer have a squad capable of getting involved in a fight with opponents and coming out on top, and I shouldn't think our manager is going to be intimidating too many opposition benches. Unless someone close to Wael is going to tell him things he doesn't want to hear then this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Anyway, if that was true, and we don't know if it is, but if it is, then it makes Garner look rather daft. Change away from a system that has got you circa 1 win in 15 back to a system that had you 4th in the division, result = instant success, so what do you do next? Change straight back to the losing system of course.
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TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,327
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Post by TaiwanGas on Sept 29, 2020 11:43:58 GMT
Goals V Northampton, last three League 1 meetings, Gas 12 Northampton 1.
Please Mr Garner can we start with two up top, a back 3, not play Alfie as a RB, score 2 or more and not concede.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Sept 29, 2020 18:29:47 GMT
Yes,I think there's something in what you say about Sunderland, in our 2 0 win. A mate seemed to think some of our senior players had a chat together and with BG and it was decided a more CG style was the way to play for that game.I wondered if anyone else had heard similar? I’ve heard people attribute it to Craig’s 600th game and the players reverting to Coughlan ball for one night only. Whatever they did they were up for it but Sunderland didn’t seem to be at all. And yes, my bad, I’ve just looked it up and it was 2-0, I thought our dominance was reflected more in the scoreline. Maybe that is why Craig is no longer with us? If there is any truth in this, in my eyes it says he would be a better manager than Benny, and paints him in an even more unflattering light as someone who knows better than anyone else and won't tolerate anyone who disagrees with him. All speculation though unless someone can confirm if there is any substance to this.
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TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,327
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Post by TaiwanGas on Sept 29, 2020 18:57:43 GMT
I’ve heard people attribute it to Craig’s 600th game and the players reverting to Coughlan ball for one night only. Whatever they did they were up for it but Sunderland didn’t seem to be at all. And yes, my bad, I’ve just looked it up and it was 2-0, I thought our dominance was reflected more in the scoreline. Maybe that is why Craig is no longer with us? If there is any truth in this, in my eyes it says he would be a better manager than Benny, and paints him in an even more unflattering light as someone who knows better than anyone else and won't tolerate anyone who disagrees with him. All speculation though unless someone can confirm if there is any substance to this. Small substance, but cannot verify, pre-match dressing room banter at Sunderland, a dedication of sorts to Craig's 600th, more of a team togetherness and mark of respect for Craig's accomplishment, twas what I heard.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 19:09:11 GMT
Maybe that is why Craig is no longer with us? If there is any truth in this, in my eyes it says he would be a better manager than Benny, and paints him in an even more unflattering light as someone who knows better than anyone else and won't tolerate anyone who disagrees with him. All speculation though unless someone can confirm if there is any substance to this. Small substance, but cannot verify, pre-match dressing room banter at Sunderland, a dedication of sorts to Craig's 600th, more of a team togetherness and mark of respect for Craig's accomplishment, twas what I heard. Wonder what we'll do to mark Garner's 600th loss
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Sept 29, 2020 19:16:44 GMT
Maybe that is why Craig is no longer with us? If there is any truth in this, in my eyes it says he would be a better manager than Benny, and paints him in an even more unflattering light as someone who knows better than anyone else and won't tolerate anyone who disagrees with him. All speculation though unless someone can confirm if there is any substance to this. Small substance, but cannot verify, pre-match dressing room banter at Sunderland, a dedication of sorts to Craig's 600th, more of a team togetherness and mark of respect for Craig's accomplishment, twas what I heard. Has the ring of truth about it. Wish Craig was still with us in some capacity. An excellent and consistent pro with a winners mentality who surely must have been a positive influence on developing pros. I still think he had a couple of seasons left in his legs if played in the right way too.
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Post by Mrs V Smegma on Sept 29, 2020 19:18:16 GMT
Small substance, but cannot verify, pre-match dressing room banter at Sunderland, a dedication of sorts to Craig's 600th, more of a team togetherness and mark of respect for Craig's accomplishment, twas what I heard. Wonder what we'll do to mark Garner's 600th loss Almost certainly play with lap top formation and tactics, and lose again for the 601st time
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2020 9:12:19 GMT
I recommend taking a long view. I did not agree with the early sackers. But neither am I now Garnerball-convinced. We've won two league games from five. Review Garner's tenure later in the season.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2020 16:46:41 GMT
Three from seven.
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Post by mangogas15 on Oct 21, 2020 16:56:18 GMT
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Post by Bamber Gashead on Oct 21, 2020 17:22:18 GMT
I make it 2 in the last 9 Overall he now has managed Pld:28 W:5 D:9 L:14 For:22 Against:45
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Oct 21, 2020 18:29:29 GMT
Lost 4 in the last 12 + a draw that we lost on penalties
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
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Post by irishrover on Oct 24, 2020 2:42:30 GMT
I recommend taking a long view. I did not agree with the early sackers. But neither am I now Garnerball-convinced. We've won two league games from five. Review Garner's tenure later in the season. I am also now in the semi-converted camp.
I've seen our last 5 games. Not perfect by any means. I've been dissapointed by our tendency to sit back too much when taking the lead at points where we have been on top and should be pressing home our advantage. We also seem to start quite slowly in games although one consistent theme seems to be that we come out after half-time and play very well for 15-20 mins. There's a bit of a rope-a-dope strategy going on I think. After half-time in each game our defensive line seems to come up 5-10 yards which is interesting and has been quite effective but surely we will have to vary this up at some point because if I've noticed this then League 1 managers must have done...
But, there is evidence of an actual pattern of play that was completely missing last season. You can see what it is that we are trying to do and the players fit the style of play now. None of that applied last season. So I think there is cause for hope. There's a long way to go but I think we at least look like a side with a plan and a structure that suits the players we have. None of those things applied last season. It's a work in progress but at least I can actually see what that amounts to now. Last season I had no clue what we were trying to do at all. So it is a big step forward. Whether it's enough in the long-run remains to be seen but I'm allowing myself some cautious optimism that maybe Garner is the guy who can execute this strategy. I still think it's fair to be skeptical though - the hole he dug for himself with Rovers fans is sufficient that it will still take some digging out of. But at least he has now located the spade and is digging in the right direction.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Oct 24, 2020 7:54:59 GMT
I recommend taking a long view. I did not agree with the early sackers. But neither am I now Garnerball-convinced. We've won two league games from five. Review Garner's tenure later in the season. I am also now in the semi-converted camp.
I've seen our last 5 games. Not perfect by any means. I've been dissapointed by our tendency to sit back too much when taking the lead at points where we have been on top and should be pressing home our advantage. We also seem to start quite slowly in games although one consistent theme seems to be that we come out after half-time and play very well for 15-20 mins. There's a bit of a rope-a-dope strategy going on I think. After half-time in each game our defensive line seems to come up 5-10 yards which is interesting and has been quite effective but surely we will have to vary this up at some point because if I've noticed this then League 1 managers must have done...
But, there is evidence of an actual pattern of play that was completely missing last season. You can see what it is that we are trying to do and the players fit the style of play now. None of that applied last season. So I think there is cause for hope. There's a long way to go but I think we at least look like a side with a plan and a structure that suits the players we have. None of those things applied last season. It's a work in progress but at least I can actually see what that amounts to now. Last season I had no clue what we were trying to do at all. So it is a big step forward. Whether it's enough in the long-run remains to be seen but I'm allowing myself some cautious optimism that maybe Garner is the guy who can execute this strategy. I still think it's fair to be skeptical though - the hole he dug for himself with Rovers fans is sufficient that it will still take some digging out of. But at least he has now located the spade and is digging in the right direction.
That's a very fair post. The benefit of this crazy situation is it allows everyone opportunity to watch all matches, home and away, as it's accessible live and more affordable. So.... you've seen (like many of us) 5 matches. I saw the previous 5 live matches and more, invested time and money. Like many out there... What I can say is although I agree with many parts of your post, some things have not changed. The big difference in last 5 matches are starting two strikers, effective wing back play, opposition set up.....but when BG makes his unforced subs (a few minutes either 70 minute mark) it tends to not change the result to a positive. Just my observations, we usually end up with 1 or 0 recognised strikers in the pitch, so naturally sit back... I think no one can argue that BG is a fully qualified coach, and may be good at that with technical knowledge. As for a manager, a nitty, wiley clever and foreseeing pro active man manager that can demonstrate we can grind out results when the game isn't going for us, inspire that team spirit.....for me, that respect hasn't been earned yet. We all have different expectations and standards..
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Oct 24, 2020 8:36:14 GMT
I am also now in the semi-converted camp.
I've seen our last 5 games. Not perfect by any means. I've been dissapointed by our tendency to sit back too much when taking the lead at points where we have been on top and should be pressing home our advantage. We also seem to start quite slowly in games although one consistent theme seems to be that we come out after half-time and play very well for 15-20 mins. There's a bit of a rope-a-dope strategy going on I think. After half-time in each game our defensive line seems to come up 5-10 yards which is interesting and has been quite effective but surely we will have to vary this up at some point because if I've noticed this then League 1 managers must have done...
But, there is evidence of an actual pattern of play that was completely missing last season. You can see what it is that we are trying to do and the players fit the style of play now. None of that applied last season. So I think there is cause for hope. There's a long way to go but I think we at least look like a side with a plan and a structure that suits the players we have. None of those things applied last season. It's a work in progress but at least I can actually see what that amounts to now. Last season I had no clue what we were trying to do at all. So it is a big step forward. Whether it's enough in the long-run remains to be seen but I'm allowing myself some cautious optimism that maybe Garner is the guy who can execute this strategy. I still think it's fair to be skeptical though - the hole he dug for himself with Rovers fans is sufficient that it will still take some digging out of. But at least he has now located the spade and is digging in the right direction.
That's a very fair post. The benefit of this crazy situation is it allows everyone opportunity to watch all matches, home and away, as it's accessible live and more affordable. So.... you've seen (like many of us) 5 matches. I saw the previous 5 live matches and more, invested time and money. Like many out there... What I can say is although I agree with many parts of your post, some things have not changed. The big difference in last 5 matches are starting two strikers, effective wing back play, opposition set up.....but when BG makes his unforced subs (a few minutes either 70 minute mark) it tends to not change the result to a positive. Just my observations, we usually end up with 1 or 0 recognised strikers in the pitch, so naturally sit back... I think no one can argue that BG is a fully qualified coach, and may be good at that with technical knowledge.
As for a manager, a nitty, wiley clever and foreseeing pro active man manager that can demonstrate we can grind out results when the game isn't going for us, inspire that team spirit.....for me, that respect hasn't been earned yet. We all have different expectations and standards.. Whilst I want doctors, lawyers and a few other professions to be fully qualified, I'm not sure football coaching is something that can be taught in the classroom, and I'm not convinced someone having a high level qualification in the UEFA scheme makes any difference to their ability to manage a football club. Some cynics may even think that FA and UEFA coaching course are a nice little earner
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Oct 24, 2020 9:33:16 GMT
That's a very fair post. The benefit of this crazy situation is it allows everyone opportunity to watch all matches, home and away, as it's accessible live and more affordable. So.... you've seen (like many of us) 5 matches. I saw the previous 5 live matches and more, invested time and money. Like many out there... What I can say is although I agree with many parts of your post, some things have not changed. The big difference in last 5 matches are starting two strikers, effective wing back play, opposition set up.....but when BG makes his unforced subs (a few minutes either 70 minute mark) it tends to not change the result to a positive. Just my observations, we usually end up with 1 or 0 recognised strikers in the pitch, so naturally sit back... I think no one can argue that BG is a fully qualified coach, and may be good at that with technical knowledge.
As for a manager, a nitty, wiley clever and foreseeing pro active man manager that can demonstrate we can grind out results when the game isn't going for us, inspire that team spirit.....for me, that respect hasn't been earned yet. We all have different expectations and standards.. Whilst I want doctors, lawyers and a few other professions to be fully qualified, I'm not sure football coaching is something that can be taught in the classroom, and I'm not convinced someone having a high level qualification in the UEFA scheme makes any difference to their ability to manage a football club. Some cynics may even think that FA and UEFA coaching course are a nice little earner And I think Rex has elegquently published exactly where I cynically am..
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
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Post by irishrover on Oct 24, 2020 12:14:07 GMT
I am also now in the semi-converted camp.
I've seen our last 5 games. Not perfect by any means. I've been dissapointed by our tendency to sit back too much when taking the lead at points where we have been on top and should be pressing home our advantage. We also seem to start quite slowly in games although one consistent theme seems to be that we come out after half-time and play very well for 15-20 mins. There's a bit of a rope-a-dope strategy going on I think. After half-time in each game our defensive line seems to come up 5-10 yards which is interesting and has been quite effective but surely we will have to vary this up at some point because if I've noticed this then League 1 managers must have done...
But, there is evidence of an actual pattern of play that was completely missing last season. You can see what it is that we are trying to do and the players fit the style of play now. None of that applied last season. So I think there is cause for hope. There's a long way to go but I think we at least look like a side with a plan and a structure that suits the players we have. None of those things applied last season. It's a work in progress but at least I can actually see what that amounts to now. Last season I had no clue what we were trying to do at all. So it is a big step forward. Whether it's enough in the long-run remains to be seen but I'm allowing myself some cautious optimism that maybe Garner is the guy who can execute this strategy. I still think it's fair to be skeptical though - the hole he dug for himself with Rovers fans is sufficient that it will still take some digging out of. But at least he has now located the spade and is digging in the right direction.
That's a very fair post. The benefit of this crazy situation is it allows everyone opportunity to watch all matches, home and away, as it's accessible live and more affordable. So.... you've seen (like many of us) 5 matches. I saw the previous 5 live matches and more, invested time and money. Like many out there... What I can say is although I agree with many parts of your post, some things have not changed. The big difference in last 5 matches are starting two strikers, effective wing back play, opposition set up.....but when BG makes his unforced subs (a few minutes either 70 minute mark) it tends to not change the result to a positive. Just my observations, we usually end up with 1 or 0 recognised strikers in the pitch, so naturally sit back... I think no one can argue that BG is a fully qualified coach, and may be good at that with technical knowledge. As for a manager, a nitty, wiley clever and foreseeing pro active man manager that can demonstrate we can grind out results when the game isn't going for us, inspire that team spirit.....for me, that respect hasn't been earned yet. We all have different expectations and standards.. I think that's fair enough. To be honest, I accept that I have arrived at this weird season relatively late (due to cricket commitments) and so had the great fortune of missing what looked like an atrocious start to the season.
I've been very lucky that my 'season' as a proper supporter who was watching the games began with the Northampton game. So clearly that frame is going to colour my judgement compared with people who have watched the whole of it and therefore are likely to need a bit more evidence of a corner being turned.
But you can only say what you see - and I see quite a lot of progress from the previous games I'd seen under Garner. Which gives me some hope that he maybe up to it after all having previously had the position of 'right strategy - wrong guy' but could also see that he clearly wasn't going anywhere due to the club being all in on him. So I do see some hope but also feel like I needed to see that hope or this season would have looked a bit grim.
I also think the schedule has mattered here. We had a terrible run of fixtures to start the season with and since Northampton we've had quite a nice run of fixtures. So I suspect that we were perhaps not quite as bad as a lot thought we were early on (after all Donny always tend to thump at their place) but obviously that those of us who see progress need to be a bit cautious in recognising that (Lincoln aside) it's come against a generally quite weak run of opponents.
So to sum up all that guff - I agree with the Duck.
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bluetornados
Predictions League
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Posts: 12,106
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Post by bluetornados on Oct 24, 2020 17:31:33 GMT
Ian Holloway on Ben Garner...
Well done to Ben Garner and his Bristol Rovers team for a terrific run of results since the beginning of the month.
Ten points from a possible 12 is a great return, particularly when you consider the opposition, and suggests the manager now has his own squad in place with players who understand the type of football he wants to play.
When I saw the result of the game against Northampton Town, managed by my old mate Keith Curle, nearly three weeks ago I was impressed.
They beat my Grimsby Town team 3-0 last February and went on to win promotion, so I knew them to be a strong side. To win 2-0 against them was a really good effort by the Rovers lads and they have certainly built on it since.
Lincoln City have been flying since the start of the season, so to win there, inflicting their only League defeat so far, must have further boosted confidence.
And a second away success of the month at Shrewsbury Town, never an easy place to visit, quickly made up for any disappointment over the loss of two home points against Burton Albion.
Some supporters might be say it’s about time they had something to cheer. But I know from experience how hard it can be for a manager in his first job with a League club.
You have no track record with which to gain the immediate respect of the squad, particularly the senior professionals.
Nowadays when I start out at a new club, some of the players are even in awe of me because I have won promotions and managed in the Premier League.
But that was certainly not the case when I first took charge at Rovers. Seasoned pros can smell bull**** a mile off and you have to adopt the right approach to earn their respect.
It’s no use barking orders at them or being the great I am. You have to get your ideas across in a manner that emphasises they will be for the good of the team, not yourself.
When things go wrong from the start, you question yourself every day. I did that as Rovers boss and you have to be strong to stick to your beliefs when the flak starts flying.
Fortunately, Ben is a guy who exudes confidence in everything he does and I am sure that helped him during any times of self-doubt.
It was one of the qualities that persuaded me to promote him from Under-18 to first team coach shortly after I became Crystal Palace manager in 2012.
My predecessor there, Dougie Freedman, took three of the coaching staff with him when moving to Bolton Wanderers and another two followed a couple of weeks later, having helped me settle in.
I had to act quickly to get replacements and thought I would start by looking inside the club at the remaining coaches.
When I saw Ben working with the Under-18s. I was immediately grabbed by his enthusiasm and the simplicity with the way he taught the basics of the game.
He was brilliant at interacting with people, which made me identify him as a future manager in the making, and he justified my faith in him as a coach by playing a big part in helping Palace win promotion to the Premier League in 2013.
When my old Rovers team-mate Tony Pulis replaced me as Palace manager, he was so impressed by Ben’s ability that he appointed him first team coach when moving to his next club West Bromwich Albion.
I lost touch with Ben then. But when I saw his name linked with the Rovers job, I was happy, even though a lot of supporters were urging me to apply and wanted a more experienced manager to replace Graham Coughlan.
I thought then, as I do now, that Ben was a very astute choice by the board. But Rovers are a big club at which to cut your managerial teeth and he inherited problems that were not obvious at the time.
For one thing, the team had probably over-achieved in being as high as fourth in League One when Graham announced his shock decision to join Mansfield Town.
There were already suggestions that top scorer Jonson Clarke-Harris would have to be sold to aid ailing finances and his goals had played a massive part in taking the team to where they were in the table.
Other players were unsettled, Ben also had to cope with a family illness that forced him to spend time away from the club, and then along came Covid-19 to end the campaign after he had been in charge for less than 20 games.
Now is the time to start judging him on his signings and the style of football he advocates. And the signs can only be described as encouraging.
The break caused by Covid-19 saw a large turnover of players at the Memorial Stadium for the second successive summer. But one benefit of the pandemic for Ben was that the late start to the current season gave him more chance to work with his new signings.
It was not a bad time to be putting a new team together because when League fixtures got underway even the most settled of sides were out of practice.
Consequently, we have seen some strange results in all divisions, with any club being capable of beating another on a given day.
The tables are still sorting themselves out and I see no reason why Rovers cannot have a successful season.
Replacing Clarke-Harris following his summer move to Peterborough United was always going to be tough. But reports I hear suggest that Brandon Hanlan is proving a handful up front and may be just the guy.
I hope people who gave Ben some early stick will now allow him more time to change their minds. As a Rovers fan myself, I believe in him.
And never forget that the word ‘supporter’ means just that, someone who gets firmly behind the club and the manager in good times and bad.
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