vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 22, 2019 10:28:39 GMT
Swiss - the assumption is that Wael would like to become an individual investor in a post DS world.
There is no evidence (deeds or words) to indicate this.
Personally, I would prefer someone to buy them out to stay where we are and use crowd funding to improve what we have. Football financials are crumbling everywhere and we need to batten down the hatches, whilst preserving ownership of our own ground.
I have no idea what the FM bid is all about, but it sounds like we are just a pawn in a much bigger property / re-development deal. What is the business model that will help us generate new revenue.
Let us not underestimate security of tenure.
Our football model should be to generate young players: sell a few to keep us in a decent financial situation, whilst improving our facilities off the pitch with crowd-funding. A new 10,000 stand on East side with superb catering and conference facilities would transform us.
We also need to address the biggest issue of all. Sell our identity to a new generation of supporters.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 10:29:19 GMT
So we have no clue as to who within the family has provided the funds that form the £17.5m you mention above. OK. Well we have the three clues I listed above and there is also the interview Wael gave to Keith Brookman in August 2017 when he told us there was “no third party involved”. But since that was the same interview in which he said the loan was not a loan and that they were about to submit a planning application for redeveloping the Mem I wouldn’t blame anyone for taking it with a pinch of sand. We were originally told that Dwane Sports was owned by four members of the Al Qadi family and the assumption was that there were four equal shares. Do you think the shareholding is split a different way and that Wael doesn’t actually own 25% ? The companies registry in Jersey isn’t much help because that shows two nominee Jersey companies holding the shares on behalf of the unnamed beneficial owners. So, we don't know whether, if the club were to be sold for a price sufficient to clear the debt, what money, if any, Wael would be left with. Good, glad that's cleared up. Even if he did come out of it with £5m, I suspect that he would want his investment secure whilst his partners' investment was exposed to the normal risks associated with 3rd tier 'soccer'.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 22, 2019 12:19:09 GMT
Well we have the three clues I listed above and there is also the interview Wael gave to Keith Brookman in August 2017 when he told us there was “no third party involved”. But since that was the same interview in which he said the loan was not a loan and that they were about to submit a planning application for redeveloping the Mem I wouldn’t blame anyone for taking it with a pinch of sand. We were originally told that Dwane Sports was owned by four members of the Al Qadi family and the assumption was that there were four equal shares. Do you think the shareholding is split a different way and that Wael doesn’t actually own 25% ? The companies registry in Jersey isn’t much help because that shows two nominee Jersey companies holding the shares on behalf of the unnamed beneficial owners. So, we don't know whether, if the club were to be sold for a price sufficient to clear the debt, what money, if any, Wael would be left with. Good, glad that's cleared up. Even if he did come out of it with £5m, I suspect that he would want his investment secure whilst his partners' investment was exposed to the normal risks associated with 3rd tier 'soccer'. What we do know is that Wael is doing everything to stay. I don’t know about you but I read swissgas posts and they are, by and large, very credible and it’s up to each of us to believe or not. I got back to digging around & asking questions but realised I was obsessing again so I’ve stopped. I do not see that there is anything we can do anyway, it certainly looks very likely that WAQ is pushing, very hard, to stay on
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 12:23:23 GMT
So, we don't know whether, if the club were to be sold for a price sufficient to clear the debt, what money, if any, Wael would be left with. Good, glad that's cleared up. Even if he did come out of it with £5m, I suspect that he would want his investment secure whilst his partners' investment was exposed to the normal risks associated with 3rd tier 'soccer'. What we do know is that Wael is doing everything to stay. I don’t know about you but I read swissgas posts and they are, by and large, very credible and it’s up to each of us to believe or not. I got back to digging around & asking questions but realised I was obsessing again so I’ve stopped. I do not see that there is anything we can do anyway, it certainly looks very likely that WAQ is pushing, very hard, to stay on I've not questioned the credibility of what Swiss has been saying. But he's assuming that Wael would come out of the club being sold with some money, that may be the case, it may not be the case. Even if he did come out of it with £4~5m, there are questions, namely, would he expose that money to risk, and with the losses that Rovers have made since he's been around, how involved would his new partners be comfortable with him being in any decision making?
|
|
TaiwanGas
Paul Bannon
Tom Ramasuts Left Foot.
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,349
|
Post by TaiwanGas on Dec 22, 2019 12:30:57 GMT
Monies aside, our leaders are not of sufficient calibre and expertise to take this club to the next level and a new stadium, and Wael insisting to stay, stymied.
|
|
kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,263
|
Post by kingswood Polak on Dec 22, 2019 12:33:50 GMT
What we do know is that Wael is doing everything to stay. I don’t know about you but I read swissgas posts and they are, by and large, very credible and it’s up to each of us to believe or not. I got back to digging around & asking questions but realised I was obsessing again so I’ve stopped. I do not see that there is anything we can do anyway, it certainly looks very likely that WAQ is pushing, very hard, to stay on I've not questioned the credibility of what Swiss has been saying. But he's assuming that Wael would come out of the club being sold with some money, that may be the case, it may not be the case. Even if he did come out of it with £4~5m, there are questions, namely, would he expose that money to risk, and with the losses that Rovers have made since he's been around, how involved would his new partners be comfortable with him being in any decision making? Yes, one question just leads to another. I am not going to get into it anymore as I found myself feeling stressed by it and, unless there is any real news then I’m leaving it be.
|
|
|
Post by swissgas on Dec 22, 2019 16:41:05 GMT
Swiss - the assumption is that Wael would like to become an individual investor in a post DS world. There is no evidence (deeds or words) to indicate this. Personally, I would prefer someone to buy them out to stay where we are and use crowd funding to improve what we have. Football financials are crumbling everywhere and we need to batten down the hatches, whilst preserving ownership of our own ground. I have no idea what the FM bid is all about, but it sounds like we are just a pawn in a much bigger property / re-development deal. What is the business model that will help us generate new revenue. Let us not underestimate security of tenure. Our football model should be to generate young players: sell a few to keep us in a decent financial situation, whilst improving our facilities off the pitch with crowd-funding. A new 10,000 stand on East side with superb catering and conference facilities would transform us. We also need to address the biggest issue of all. Sell our identity to a new generation of supporters. The hearsay evidence that Wael wants to stay on is widespread and consistent with even the Bristol Post reporting it as “the Post understands ...”. And his actions show he is desperate to keep pretending he is a VIP in the football world so would go to any lengths to continue this facade. Even to the point of sabotaging a deal which might be the breakthrough for Rovers which many of us have been hoping for all our lives. The problem with the Mem is that it is worth too much as a development site which is why the Al Qadi family have been content to run up so much debt against its security. No one, IMO, is going to pay the market price for it and then use it as a football ground. But for the Al Qadi family to be repaid it has to be sold at the market price. The Fruit Market Project would be very attractive to football investors because it offers them a stadium which is prestigious and high profile in a location which provides the opportunity to maximize revenue generation. With the backing of the Council and with proper capitalization Rovers could negotiate a lease which would give us far better security than we have at present. In fact, do we have any security at present with our ground 90 - 100% mortgaged and no way of generating the money to even make interest payments ? It would be a tragedy to let the Fruit Market plan fade away while Wael sells our playing assets to buy time while he continues twiddling his thumbs hoping something turns up.
|
|
|
Post by a more piratey game on Dec 22, 2019 16:48:12 GMT
Swiss - the assumption is that Wael would like to become an individual investor in a post DS world. There is no evidence (deeds or words) to indicate this. Personally, I would prefer someone to buy them out to stay where we are and use crowd funding to improve what we have. Football financials are crumbling everywhere and we need to batten down the hatches, whilst preserving ownership of our own ground. I have no idea what the FM bid is all about, but it sounds like we are just a pawn in a much bigger property / re-development deal. What is the business model that will help us generate new revenue. Let us not underestimate security of tenure. Our football model should be to generate young players: sell a few to keep us in a decent financial situation, whilst improving our facilities off the pitch with crowd-funding. A new 10,000 stand on East side with superb catering and conference facilities would transform us. We also need to address the biggest issue of all. Sell our identity to a new generation of supporters. The hearsay evidence that Wael wants to stay on is widespread and consistent with even the Bristol Post reporting it as “the Post understands ...”. And his actions show he is desperate to keep pretending he is a VIP in the football world so would go to any lengths to continue this facade. Even to the point of sabotaging a deal which might be the breakthrough for Rovers which many of us have been hoping for all our lives. The problem with the Mem is that it is worth too much as a development site which is why the Al Qadi family have been content to run up so much debt against its security. No one, IMO, is going to pay the market price for it and then use it as a football ground. But for the Al Qadi family to be repaid it has to be sold at the market price. The Fruit Market Project would be very attractive to football investors because it offers them a stadium which is prestigious and high profile in a location which provides the opportunity to maximize revenue generation. With the backing of the Council and with proper capitalization Rovers could negotiate a lease which would give us far better security than we have at present. In fact, do we have any security at present with our ground 90 - 100% mortgaged and no way of generating the money to even make interest payments ? It would be a tragedy to let the Fruit Market plan fade away while Wael sells our playing assets to buy time while he continues twiddling his thumbs hoping something turns up. the only sticking points mentioned in dispatches are Wael's desire to stay on, and the price of Fruit, as far as I'm aware are you aware of any others swiss?
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 22, 2019 17:13:12 GMT
Swiss - thanks for your continued analysis.
Please tell me how BRFC can generate more revenue at FM than a re-develped Mem that we own.
Please be specific as this was never made clear for UWE - which I approved of with 100 year lease.
|
|
|
Post by swissgas on Dec 22, 2019 17:24:50 GMT
It would be a tragedy to let the Fruit Market plan fade away while Wael sells our playing assets to buy time while he continues twiddling his thumbs hoping something turns up. the only sticking points mentioned in dispatches are Wael's desire to stay on, and the price of Fruit, as far as I'm aware are you aware of any others swiss? The message I’m getting from a number of sources is that Wael’s inability or unwillingness to negotiate sensibly is the main barrier to progress. When we watch and listen to Wael’s interviews with our head in hands and ask ourselves “is he really like this when he’s doing business” I am afraid the answer is “ yes he probably is”. If the will is there I am sure a deal could be done and the way to do it is outlined in the plan.
|
|
|
Post by swissgas on Dec 22, 2019 18:03:03 GMT
Swiss - thanks for your continued analysis. Please tell me how BRFC can generate more revenue at FM than a re-develped Mem that we own. Please be specific as this was never made clear for UWE - which I approved of with 100 year lease. The first thing to say is that from the point of view of doing business there is no difference between owning or leasing a property. If you lease a factory you have a lease which allows you to manufacture whatever it is your company makes. If you lease a retail outlet you have a lease which allows you to sell whatever it is that your company sells. And if you lease a sports complex you have a lease which allows you to do whatever it is that a sports operator does which these days is not restricted to just playing football on a Saturday but encompasses the wide variety of entertainment, retail and other business activities which a successful football club now includes within their portfolio. The second thing to say is something I have learned over the years as a general principle but only after making the mistake of following my own instincts which proved to be wrong. The advice I was given was “don’t be a martyr, go where the big players are going and make your money on the back of them”. So when you see the way the wind is blowing, the powerful players pushing the regeneration of St Philips, and you have an opportunity to be part of it then you should give it your best shot. In practical terms, for revenue generation, it is really quite simple. The people who advise investors where to put their money for say gaming zones, mobile deals app’s, sports betting app’s, food and drink outlets, sports fashion stores, dedicated tv channels etc which are to be associated with a football club are more likely to favor a football club which is located in an affluent vibrant City location than one located on the edge of town in a residential district. Because they too are adhering to the principle of “follow the crowd”. www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/business/sports-arena-development.html
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 22, 2019 18:58:00 GMT
Thanks Swiss - fully get that. But what will BRFC operate directly that will generate revenue for BRFC? Shops, restaurants, gym, conference facilities - a very crowded market.
UWE is much more "crowded" than St Phillips will be.
|
|
|
Post by swissgas on Dec 22, 2019 20:06:20 GMT
Again, it is a question of having to change the way we think about these things. Most of the revenue generation would come from activities we would sub contract/sub let to specialist operators and a prestigious central location would attract the best operators who would produce the most revenue for us.
An anecdote to this is the UWE project where factual evidence is available from the Sainsburys court documents. Rovers had a gym operator lined up and when I looked into their background it was clear their business model was based on leasing older cheaper buildings. So what were they doing being chosen as operators at the brand new UWE Stadium ? The conclusion I reached was that Rovers were so desperate to get someone in that the best they could do was to get this company signed up at a price much less than one would expect from a new build at a supposedly prestigious development.
What we need is to have a development where top class operators are scrambling to get involved and willing to pay a high price for the opportunity.
|
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 22, 2019 21:07:25 GMT
Thank you Swiss. Really appreciated your insight on this topic.
Hopefully, you recognise my Kelvin Zero confidence levels in Mr Wael Al Qadi.
Time will tell if I have misunderstood the man.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 21:34:58 GMT
Again, it is a question of having to change the way we think about these things. Most of the revenue generation would come from activities we would sub contract/sub let to specialist operators and a prestigious central location would attract the best operators who would produce the most revenue for us. Nice of our new landlords to lease us the whole development so cheaply that we can sublet its peripheral units out at a profit sufficient to subsidise the running of a third division football club now with no assets, rather than to let out the separate parts of the development to such businesses themselves thus to keep the income themselves. What are we doing to deserve the profits, otherwise?
|
|
|
Post by swissgas on Dec 22, 2019 23:12:08 GMT
Again, it is a question of having to change the way we think about these things. Most of the revenue generation would come from activities we would sub contract/sub let to specialist operators and a prestigious central location would attract the best operators who would produce the most revenue for us. Nice of our new landlords to lease us the whole development so cheaply that we can sublet its peripheral units out at a profit sufficient to subsidise the running of a third division football club now with no assets, rather than to let out the separate parts of the development to such businesses themselves thus to keep the income themselves. What are we doing to deserve the profits, otherwise? The stadium would be a relatively small part of a huge regeneration project and at this point in time the politicians have the power to lay out a few ground rule which we know in this case include a potential new home for Rovers. The Rovers which has presented itself to the politicians and developers so far is probably the one we have become familiar with. No plan, no money, no articulacy and wanting someone else to do all the work and put up all the cash. What I am suggesting is a very different Rovers. One with a credible business plan and substantial cash capitalization which can negotiate from a position of strength, set out what we can bring to the development and explain what we need including in the lease to make our part of the deal work.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 23:28:51 GMT
The stadium would be a relatively small part of a huge regeneration project and at this point in time the politicians have the power to lay out a few ground rule which we know in this case include a potential new home for Rovers. I'm happy to hope that the landlord leasing us a stadium facility may be a condition of the development. But to lease us other peripheral properties so cheaply that we can derive income from their sub-letting? A kindness too far for me. The landlord would want to lease out these units themselves, making profit themselves. I want whatever you're drinking, Sir. What I am suggesting is a very different Rovers. One with a credible business plan and substantial cash capitalization which can negotiate from a position of strength, set out what we can bring to the development and explain what we need including in the lease to make our part of the deal work. I'm all for this. I think this is what so many of us hoped we had found when Higgs sold to Al Qadi & Sons.
|
|
|
Post by billyocean on Dec 22, 2019 23:45:07 GMT
“articulacy” always a surprise when I’m thinking “is that actually a word?” having just read it on a football forum
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 23:50:21 GMT
Bring back the Dunfords.
|
|
|
Post by billyocean on Dec 23, 2019 0:02:22 GMT
I was trying to explain Rovers to friends of mine in London tonight but I just couldn’t because none of it makes any sense. GC leaving for Mansfield, the training ground debacle, the new stadium embarrassment. We all get used to it but try to explain it all to someone who’s new to it all and it’s hard. But hey, we’re 4th
|
|