Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 15:06:41 GMT
Sinclair's 94th minute winner at Luton. Scenes. Hoorah, a football comment which was what we should be discussing. I was expecting a discussion on our Chairman's comments about how Brexit affects football and Rovers in particular. Now stopping free speech, but there are so many places elsewhere to go over the vote, but only one or two places to discuss Rovers. Except, like he said, no-one's got a clue. We've voted for a blank sheet and carte blanche as to what happens next - although so far it's enabled a right wing take-over of a centre right government. That's the point.
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Post by lostinspace on Jun 25, 2016 15:21:17 GMT
Hoorah, a football comment which was what we should be discussing. I was expecting a discussion on our Chairman's comments about how Brexit affects football and Rovers in particular. Now stopping free speech, but there are so many places elsewhere to go over the vote, but only one or two places to discuss Rovers. To be fair, this isn't the most active of forums, yet this thread seems to have attracted a fair amount of comment.
maybe if everyone behaves- which they seem to have so far- we can have the serious forum back
a test of sorts regarding this current topic has gone civilised to date,,,,... as it seems there are no longer one or two posters who like to inflame "current affairs" with their enriched views and will not tolerate any other, at least not appearing on here so far.. to tempt another go at the CA section would IMO entice the same poster back and would suffer the same fate .....lets keep it simple
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,287
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Post by Rex on Jun 25, 2016 15:31:23 GMT
Flipping heck, we agree Great idea, administrative nightmare. All too easy for someone like Farage to sit on the sidelines and point out the shortcomings, a whole lot harder to figure out how to make the thing actually work, especially when parasites like the Kinnock family crawl up the sewers and straight into very well paid jobs that produce, as far as I can tell, the square root of naff all. It's all well and good to accuse leavers of voting for rainbows with pots of gold, but until the EU is actually a democratic and functioning body that's fit for purpose, the remainers are just as bad. We had a choice, but it was no choice. It's happened, occassionally, before. The EU (& it's previous incarnations) had 40+ years to prove it's worth to us and it has failed, miserably in my view. We've voted (democratically) out and if the country pulls together (as I would've have done had it been a Remain vote) we will all make a success of it, if the country doesn't pull together (& at the moment the Remain camp seems to be sulking like a petulant child) then it could fail. I don't think think the petulant child remark is particularly helpful when you talk about people pulling together , and isn't it odd that Farage has talked about people pulling together, yet before the vote he said he would have contested any close result! However, I do agree that the remainers among us have to accept and get on with it. I think- certainly in the short term- that the uncertainty will create a few economic problems, but I suspect that in a few years time, most of us won't even give a seconds thought as to whether we are in the EU or not, as we will all just get on with our lives pretty much in the same way we have always done.
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 15:49:45 GMT
It's happened, occassionally, before. The EU (& it's previous incarnations) had 40+ years to prove it's worth to us and it has failed, miserably in my view. We've voted (democratically) out and if the country pulls together (as I would've have done had it been a Remain vote) we will all make a success of it, if the country doesn't pull together (& at the moment the Remain camp seems to be sulking like a petulant child) then it could fail. I don't think think the petulant child remark is particularly helpful when you talk about people pulling together , and isn't it odd that Farage has talked about people pulling together, yet before the vote he said he would have contested any close result! However, I do agree that the remainers among us have to accept and get on with it. I think- certainly in the short term- that the uncertainty will create a few economic problems, but I suspect that in a few years time, most of us won't even give a seconds thought as to whether we are in the EU or not, as we will all just get on with our lives pretty much in the same way we have always done.
It probably doesn't help but that is the feeling I'm getting from many of them. You're right on it settling down & in a few years time it will become the accepted norm.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 15:54:21 GMT
It's happened, occassionally, before. The EU (& it's previous incarnations) had 40+ years to prove it's worth to us and it has failed, miserably in my view. We've voted (democratically) out and if the country pulls together (as I would've have done had it been a Remain vote) we will all make a success of it, if the country doesn't pull together (& at the moment the Remain camp seems to be sulking like a petulant child) then it could fail. I don't think think the petulant child remark is particularly helpful when you talk about people pulling together , and isn't it odd that Farage has talked about people pulling together, yet before the vote he said he would have contested any close result! However, I do agree that the remainers among us have to accept and get on with it. I think- certainly in the short term- that the uncertainty will create a few economic problems, but I suspect that in a few years time, most of us won't even give a seconds thought as to whether we are in the EU or not, as we will all just get on with our lives pretty much in the same way we have always done.
Exactly Probably, as you said Rex, the major change will be the swapping of a centre right government to a more hard core right wing. I the best case scenario is we, as a country, go through the same six years of of economic stagnation endured after the crash of 2008 and we end up in the same place as now. Best case
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 16:14:35 GMT
I don't think think the petulant child remark is particularly helpful when you talk about people pulling together , and isn't it odd that Farage has talked about people pulling together, yet before the vote he said he would have contested any close result! However, I do agree that the remainers among us have to accept and get on with it. I think- certainly in the short term- that the uncertainty will create a few economic problems, but I suspect that in a few years time, most of us won't even give a seconds thought as to whether we are in the EU or not, as we will all just get on with our lives pretty much in the same way we have always done.
Exactly Probably, as you said Rex, the major change will be the swapping of a centre right government to a more hard core right wing. I the best case scenario is we, as a country, go through the same six years of of economic stagnation endured after the crash of 2008 and we end up in the same place as now. Best case Given how far off you were with everything you said in 2008, I'm surprised you aren't embarrassed to even comment on the subject of economics. Anyway, David Lammy has a solution to the whole Brexit mistake, here you go, And some people wonder why politicians aren't trusted.
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 16:22:48 GMT
I don't think think the petulant child remark is particularly helpful when you talk about people pulling together , and isn't it odd that Farage has talked about people pulling together, yet before the vote he said he would have contested any close result! However, I do agree that the remainers among us have to accept and get on with it. I think- certainly in the short term- that the uncertainty will create a few economic problems, but I suspect that in a few years time, most of us won't even give a seconds thought as to whether we are in the EU or not, as we will all just get on with our lives pretty much in the same way we have always done.
Exactly Probably, as you said Rex, the major change will be the swapping of a centre right government to a more hard core right wing. I the best case scenario is we, as a country, go through the same six years of of economic stagnation endured after the crash of 2008 and we end up in the same place as now. Best case Or the EU comes to its senses, and it sounds like Merkel is edging that way, and realises a trade war is not in anyone's interested and we can start from where we are today but add further trade agreements with other countries that the EU in 60 odd years haven't bothered to try and setup.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jun 25, 2016 16:33:10 GMT
I think they voted for border control. And a promise to spend the same saving made from EU contributions many times over; at least once on the NHS, once on education, once on building affordable housing for first time buyers, once on stables for unicorns that f&rt rainbows etc etc etc. It is all depressing, we should be part of the EU, we would be stronger together, however, it ain't gonna work as long as Brussels is run like a 1970s closed shop union. If it wasn't us, it was going to be France, and quite possible it will be France next anyway. The whole EU project is hanging by a thread. Maybe something can be salvaged from the ashes, but it's hard to see how? As for bananas, Google Ray Comfort banana man, you'll learn all you need to know. Completely agree with this. Too many have voted against things without really considering what the alternatives are. Hi @bambergasgroin I just watched that video. Thanks for the really most needed laugh. I really appreciate that right now
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,068
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Post by Angas on Jun 25, 2016 18:01:59 GMT
Not what has been said. Detracts from your argument entirely. So did I. Your words Thought I'd remind you as perhaps you are going senile? My additional words I think you just like an argument. Sorry, I'm not up for one of those on this thread. The deed is done and we have to live with it. I'm interested in reading views and hoping I'll find something that persuades me the result is not as disastrous as I think it is. Of course, only time will really tell on that one as hard facts for either case have been somewhat elusive so far.
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Post by badbloodash on Jun 25, 2016 18:11:06 GMT
Completely agree with this. Too many have voted against things without really considering what the alternatives are. Hi @bambergasgroin I just watched that video. Thanks for the really most needed laugh. I really appreciate that right now Jools don't worry I'm sure you can get a polish passport because of your dad I've sent of for my Irish passport today so we can still move freely in Europe live in any country and claim free medical care
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,068
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Post by Angas on Jun 25, 2016 18:16:24 GMT
Sinclair's 94th minute winner at Luton. Scenes. Hoorah, a football comment which was what we should be discussing. I was expecting a discussion on our Chairman's comments about how Brexit affects football and Rovers in particular. Now stopping free speech, but there are so many places elsewhere to go over the vote, but only one or two places to discuss Rovers. If there was a current affairs section I would have posted this thread there. As there isn't, I took advantage of the chairman's message to raise the topic on here. I'm interested in hearing views on the result, in a place where they feel relevant to me and where I believe it's less likely that the discussion will turn into a slanging match along the lines of all the pre-vote, in/out, political debates. No need for anyone to read this thread if it's not of interest to them. There's plenty of room on the forum for threads on "football and Rovers in particular" - I'm sure this thread will be pushed down the page by those soon enough.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 18:35:13 GMT
Your words Thought I'd remind you as perhaps you are going senile? My additional words I think you just like an argument. Sorry, I'm not up for one of those on this thread. The deed is done and we have to live with it. I'm interested in reading views and hoping I'll find something that persuades me the result is not as disastrous as I think it is. Of course, only time will really tell on that one as hard facts for either case have been somewhat elusive so far. Disastrous is a strong word. Depressing might be better. At a guess (since we haven't been told what happens next, just not to listen to experts): We'll survive and life goes on much as before. We won't be as economically successful as we would have been because it's basic economics that wider markets enable greater trade and cash circulation, which is where value comes from. People will probably moan, but they do that anyway and it will all be relative against a what might have been that we haven't got. We'll proceed on a basis of small mindedness, them-and-us, playing the victim and fist shaking, rather than co-operation, friendliness and respect, which is a major step backwards in the development of humanity (and a shame, imo). Most regulations will stay in place because we need regulations, there's nothing wrong with the ones in place, and no-one's been sufficiently moved to tell us which ones will be changed or revoked - they'll just be rebranded as UK regulations. Any changing or revocation will be done by a right wing government and probably not welcomed by the people of Sunderland and Barnsley, given their usual voting record (but at least it will be 'our' government, elected by 36% of a 65% turnout or whatever it was, and subjected to an internal change of direction). Boris will become PM by throwing more red meat at Conservative party members, which was always the aim of someone who was in favour of the EU until February, but was expecting not to win, just paint himself as the underdog darling of the party electorate so that he inherited a stable government (in the EU) in a few years time, not have to formulate a completely new economic, business and foreign policy, none of which can be as good as we've had, from scratch, in 2016, but that's his hard luck (as well as ours). But generally, life will go on, much as before. After all, most things people care about - family finance, employment, the NHS, benefits and pensions, transport et al are nothing to do with the EU and entirely down to the UK government. It's just a shame the economy won't be as strong to fund it all. So probably not 'disastrous' just hugely regrettable. Hope that helps.
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,068
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Post by Angas on Jun 25, 2016 18:47:54 GMT
Thank you Seth. You're probably right (hopefully, anyway). But imagine Boris as PM and Donald as President of the USA. Any words of comfort on that prospect?
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 25, 2016 19:17:27 GMT
This is getting silly now. Below is an extract from the BBC website -
However, there is talk around Westminster of whether any deal on Brexit negotiated with the EU should then be put to a referendum further down the line.
So we agree to a divorce, don't like the settlement, and get married again?
What bit of it was a free and fair vote do these people not understand?
That is as bad as the EU getting the Ireland and Denmark to vote again because they didn't like the first result. Will we be doing this at the next election because one side or the other doesn't like the result?
The question put to the country was "In or Out"
Not "In or Out (which will mean doing it all again)"
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 19:17:58 GMT
Thank you Seth. You're probably right (hopefully, anyway). But imagine Boris as PM and Donald as President of the USA. Any words of comfort on that prospect? If Donald is president we'll almost certainly have a trade agreement with the world's largest economy before the EU does, and they've had a 40 year head start on us. PS sorry you don't feel able to debate your ageist comments
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,200
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Post by eppinggas on Jun 25, 2016 19:34:00 GMT
We voted out. Cameron is out. Next up President Trump? Like it or not - there are huge numbers of disenfranchised people out there who are voting to give the political elite a bloody nose.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 19:34:33 GMT
This is getting silly now. Below is an extract from the BBC website - However, there is talk around Westminster of whether any deal on Brexit negotiated with the EU should then be put to a referendum further down the line.So we agree to a divorce, don't like the settlement, and get married again? What bit of it was a free and fair vote do these people not understand? That is as bad as the EU getting the Ireland and Denmark to vote again because they didn't like the first result. Will we be doing this at the next election because one side or the other doesn't like the result? The question put to the country was "In or Out" Not "In or Out (which will mean doing it all again)" See my quote above from Lammy, he doesn't even want to do that, all he wants is a show of hands in Westminster to decide whether or not to ignore the result of the referendum.
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Post by laughinggas on Jun 25, 2016 19:50:43 GMT
My additional words I think you just like an argument. Sorry, I'm not up for one of those on this thread. The deed is done and we have to live with it. I'm interested in reading views and hoping I'll find something that persuades me the result is not as disastrous as I think it is. Of course, only time will really tell on that one as hard facts for either case have been somewhat elusive so far. Disastrous is a strong word. Depressing might be better. At a guess (since we haven't been told what happens next, just not to listen to experts): We'll survive and life goes on much as before. We won't be as economically successful as we would have been because it's basic economics that wider markets enable greater trade and cash circulation, which is where value comes from. People will probably moan, but they do that anyway and it will all be relative against a what might have been that we haven't got. We'll proceed on a basis of small mindedness, them-and-us, playing the victim and fist shaking, rather than co-operation, friendliness and respect, which is a major step backwards in the development of humanity (and a shame, imo). Most regulations will stay in place because we need regulations, there's nothing wrong with the ones in place, and no-one's been sufficiently moved to tell us which ones will be changed or revoked - they'll just be rebranded as UK regulations. Any changing or revocation will be done by a right wing government and probably not welcomed by the people of Sunderland and Barnsley, given their usual voting record (but at least it will be 'our' government, elected by 36% of a 65% turnout or whatever it was, and subjected to an internal change of direction). Boris will become PM by throwing more red meat at Conservative party members, which was always the aim of someone who was in favour of the EU until February, but was expecting not to win, just paint himself as the underdog darling of the party electorate so that he inherited a stable government (in the EU) in a few years time, not have to formulate a completely new economic, business and foreign policy, none of which can be as good as we've had, from scratch, in 2016, but that's his hard luck (as well as ours). But generally, life will go on, much as before. After all, most things people care about - family finance, employment, the NHS, benefits and pensions, transport et al are nothing to do with the EU and entirely down to the UK government. It's just a shame the economy won't be as strong to fund it all. So probably not 'disastrous' just hugely regrettable. Hope that helps. Well put plus, Boris will say at any sign of problems you voted us out of the EU.
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Post by manchestergas on Jun 25, 2016 19:52:04 GMT
I was strongly for Remain, and frankly despair at the result. I live in Manchester, and here it was 60 to 40 for Remain. It was not just London and Scotland who voted Remain but also the larger cities. It shows a massive divide in this country sadly.
I can understand to a degree why people voted to leave. I think it had absolutely nothing to do with racism, it was a protest against globalisation and the fact some peoples concerns were ignored and they wanted to give the 'elite' a kicking. It had nothing really to do with the EU.
Will a leave vote help any of the above, absolutely no it will make the position of many who voted leave worse.
Most people in the short to medium term think our economy will worsen as a result of leave, it will. About 5000 jobs have gone in the City of London since Thursday, 1000 gone today with the HSBC announcement. Maybe they were all evil bankers, but they were tax payers. In fact its not really job losses, its relocations, many are EU nationals, the people who will be made redundant, are their English support staff, the secretaries, the cleaners, even the lawyers. Their tax revenue will go to the French government, their deals will be booked in the French trade figures, in Euros. The elite and the haves however will be alright, they always are. The financial jobs will go first, then the jobs based on FDI, yes that Nissan plant up in Sunderland won't close next week, next year or in five years, but when the next new model comes round, where will it be built, probably Slovakia, when we don't have full access to the Single Market (because to get that you have to accept free movement of people). No major changes but we will slowly get poorer and also less powerful. In time the permanent seat on the security council will go, we will be less wealthy, so people will take less notice. We will be smaller.
What leaving the EU will do is expose the UK to the full force of globalisation. So the benefit of leave is less regulation and free trade deals. Look at the leaders of leave, Mr Johnson, Mr Gove and Mr Farage, NHS safe in their hands? Less regulation, oh there goes some employment rights, free trade with China and India whose jobs will go, the unskilled, the uneducated. The winds of globalisation will blow through this country now, and who will be hit hardest, the poor. Yes this was a vote against the Elite!
Chuck in the United Kingdom will be no more. Scotland is going, no doubt about it and maybe Northern Ireland.
There was a comment on Norway above, they are doing alright. Their economy is small and based on oil. They also have what they called a faxed democracy. They have to apply 90 percent of EU laws and members of the EEA. The fax turns up from Brussels and they apply the laws with no say. Whatever happens, the UKs biggest trading partner will remain as the EU, we will have comply with their rules, but have no say in them. Norway makes massive contributions to the EU budget to have access to the Single Market but has no say in its running. Independent they are not, and nor will we be. Full sovereignty in this world is a myth.
And lets play the positive card. In 1973 our economy was a basket case on the way down. In the 40 years since we joined we have got stronger, because we worked together with the EU. Its the biggest market in the world. We had a unique political position of the bridge between the US and EU. We were unique. We won't be now. We will be another country floating around in the sea of globalisation. We are a Great Country, we were made Greater by Europe. People said the Remain people were unpatriotic, had no faith in the UK. I did, I am very proud of this country, what we have achieved, our glorious history, our contributions to the world, our literature, our language our innovation. The EU made us better.
Anyway the decrease in wealth will be made up by that 350 million per week, oh....its not really 350 million is it.
Voters should have asked what those people advocating BREXIT wanted to achieve. BREXIT is not the end, it was a means to an end. On the right, you have Johnson and Gove, they want a new Hong Kong floating off the coast of Europe, yes maybe economically dynamic, but no employment protection, no NHS, a hard country for money makers. Then you had the left, and I put Corbyn in that category. He never believed in Remain, he was so ineffective he damaged the Labour campaign at least. He wants a little Cuba floating off Europe. There is a complete disconnect between UKIP supporters and what their leaders what. BREXIT is done now we move on to the true Project. The right are in control, so we move to the image of the UK from Gove and Johnson.
Anyway, I will be alright Jack. Frankly it was Turkeys voting for Christmas. The chaos happening over the last two days will endure for years.
Its a new day, a new dawn and frankly a new country and those harking back to the fifties England, it won't be that!
The People have spoken, there should be no new referendum, we should move to leave and get used to the new reality, I am. But I really doubt that all, and some do, of those who voted Leave, really knows what that new reality will be, and what is coming, because it will not be pretty or have a smile on its face.
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 25, 2016 20:07:38 GMT
This is getting silly now. Below is an extract from the BBC website - However, there is talk around Westminster of whether any deal on Brexit negotiated with the EU should then be put to a referendum further down the line.So we agree to a divorce, don't like the settlement, and get married again? What bit of it was a free and fair vote do these people not understand? That is as bad as the EU getting the Ireland and Denmark to vote again because they didn't like the first result. Will we be doing this at the next election because one side or the other doesn't like the result? The question put to the country was "In or Out" Not "In or Out (which will mean doing it all again)" See my quote above from Lammy, he doesn't even want to do that, all he wants is a show of hands in Westminster to decide whether or not to ignore the result of the referendum. Depressing probably doesn't come close to describing it.
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