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Post by optogas1976 on Jun 24, 2016 21:15:36 GMT
I voted remain and can see major benefits for my ownpolitical beliefs in Scotland leaving, the good Friday agreement crumbling, the Eu using us as an example and the economy going belly up for a while. However leave did win fair and square. But the above could really improve English politics immensely but then I'm reasonably left of centre.....
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,067
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Post by Angas on Jun 24, 2016 21:35:57 GMT
Where are the maths to support this it's the old that voted out? nothing on the Ballot paper re age. people quoting percentages without attaching figures. it like most of the figures quoted in the build up meaningless. Angas I expect better of you. Fair point (though the stats posted by Bamber appear to back up my feeling). I know how my mum voted, and why. I suspect many of her generation will have had the same thought process. Plenty of stats here if anyone wants to study them - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
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LPGas
Stuart Taylor
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,240
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Post by LPGas on Jun 24, 2016 21:44:00 GMT
I think referendums (or is it referenda?) are really the best sort of democracy that you can have. Everyone has a vote and all votes are equal. I voted out for that very reason. MEP's are voted in, and they pontificate and vote, but it means nothing because the layers upward do what they want. The other reason is I don't believe you can marry the richest countries in Europe with some of the poorest and expect anything other than trouble. The idea of Macedonia and others joining did not convince me that our "contributions" were ever going to go down, and as the second highest "contributor" it was one thing that persuaded me to vote out. The other was transparency. the idea that they haven't published any accounts for 13 years, and that most of them are now very wealthy people for bureaucrats was the second thing, and then the waste. They spend £150 million a year by moving to Strasbourg for4 days a month is totally outrageous. I would fit them with video conferencing for half that amount !! and as for 16 to 18 year old voting, the law has changed they have to be in school or training until they are 18, so really they are school kids, and what would they know about politics? A few of them perhaps but most of them would have voted for the side that had the most "fit" men/ women in. When I was 16 I only ever thought about the gas and my scooter. ( My willie as well to be honest). . With regards to another referendum for Scotland, don't give it to them, give it to us to see if we still want them!!!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 22:06:43 GMT
My point of view on the thread (mod head on) as long as people do not go over the top at each other it has to be allowed as it is about a message from the chairman. Still do not get why unless we are going to be a big player as for my views, we all had a chance to vote, I voted for the losing team, which is bad enough but when you add on to that my home area (Rhondda valleys) a true labour area that benefits from the EU voted out. This is my last post on the subject, feeling gutted for my European friends who wanted us to stay in.
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shakes
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 122
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Post by shakes on Jun 24, 2016 22:18:39 GMT
I think referendums (or is it referenda?) are really the best sort of democracy that you can have. Everyone has a vote and all votes are equal. I voted out for that very reason. MEP's are voted in, and they pontificate and vote, but it means nothing because the layers upward do what they want. The other reason is I don't believe you can marry the richest countries in Europe with some of the poorest and expect anything other than trouble. The idea of Macedonia and others joining did not convince me that our "contributions" were ever going to go down, and as the second highest "contributor" it was one thing that persuaded me to vote out. The other was transparency. the idea that they haven't published any accounts for 13 years, and that most of them are now very wealthy people for bureaucrats was the second thing, and then the waste. They spend £150 million a year by moving to Strasbourg for4 days a month is totally outrageous. I would fit them with video conferencing for half that amount !! and as for 16 to 18 year old voting, the law has changed they have to be in school or training until they are 18, so really they are school kids, and what would they know about politics? A few of them perhaps but most of them would have voted for the side that had the most "fit" men/ women in. When I was 16 I only ever thought about the gas and my scooter. ( My willie as well to be honest). . With regards to another referendum for Scotland, don't give it to them, give it to us to see if we still want them!!! This was another vote made by ill-informed people with their behaviours influenced by social-media hysteria on points for and against instead of rationale debate of the whole subject matter. It's too big a decision for many peoples pretty little minds. Democracy has failed when 48% of the voters have to live with decisions of the 52%. When 25% of the overall voters were ambivalent anyway but were persuaded to vote one way or the other on gut instinct or a sloganism. Democracy in the 2010s has brought Jeremy corbyn, ed millipede, boaty mcboatface, Donald trump and sadiq khan. They are not the right answers to the questions that arose at the time but the decisions were a consequence of the flaws of democracy. So long as a decision is made by a process then it has to be the right decision?!?! Next, let the people vote on nuclear power so Cheryl from Cumbernauld can have her say on the energy plan from Britain.
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,067
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Post by Angas on Jun 24, 2016 22:31:50 GMT
The chap on the radio this morning seemed to be regretting his vote. He only wanted to make a protest, he didn't anticipate 'Leave' winning.
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 24, 2016 22:32:10 GMT
How has democracy failed? Everyone had a vote. All votes count the same. First past the post wins. Simple. Effective.
The only issue here is many people are miffed because the result is not what was expected. I really don't think this argument would be put forward if it went the other way. But it would have been the same system. Think maybe the issue here is probably should it ever have been started. In essence it was about UKIP squeezing Cameron over the issue who, for whatever reason, thought he could take him on and win. Then lost. Basically because the political establishment are so out of touch with Mr and Mrs Ordinairy Voter they didn't realise that they were that disillusioned. Cue chaos, bloody nose etc.
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 24, 2016 22:46:53 GMT
If the EU is such a good idea - that is the Federal model with individual mature democracies each becoming subordinate to a single Parliament in a foreign land, a single currency, defence force, Bank etc etc - why is it not being replicated in other areas of the world? The EU is a political project - referred to as such by the Eurocrats - it was not born out of any economic imperative and that is its fault line. A trade area that looks after closely aligned and neighbouring countries is something most can see as sensible. And that is replicated elsewhere in the world. The mistake is thinking a fully integrated political union is the natural follow on from that. That is not replicated anywhere else in the world. In the near future, now the genie is out of the bottle, you will see many other countries showing the disillusionment many of their citizens feel at an out of touch political elite thinking they know what's best. The gravy train just hit the buffers.
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,067
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Post by Angas on Jun 24, 2016 22:54:03 GMT
How has democracy failed? Everyone had a vote. All votes count the same. First past the post wins. Simple. Effective. The only issue here is many people are miffed because the result is not what was expected. I really don't think this argument would be put forward if it went the other way. But it would have been the same system. Think maybe the issue here is probably should it ever have been started. In essence it was about UKIP squeezing Cameron over the issue who, for whatever reason, thought he could take him on and win. Then lost. Basically because the political establishment are so out of touch with Mr and Mrs Ordinairy Voter they didn't realise that they were that disillusioned. Cue chaos, bloody nose etc. I'm concerned rather than miffed. First past the post won, but it was hardly a convincing majority on such a major decision. Two choices, both campaigns based on guesswork - no surprise that opinion was split down the middle.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 22:57:24 GMT
How has democracy failed? Everyone had a vote. All votes count the same. First past the post wins. Simple. Effective. The only issue here is many people are miffed because the result is not what was expected. I really don't think this argument would be put forward if it went the other way. But it would have been the same system. Think maybe the issue here is probably should it ever have been started. In essence it was about UKIP squeezing Cameron over the issue who, for whatever reason, thought he could take him on and win. Then lost. Basically because the political establishment are so out of touch with Mr and Mrs Ordinairy Voter they didn't realise that they were that disillusioned. Cue chaos, bloody nose etc. Cameron would have won had the idiots at the EU not sent him home empty handed from ''negotiations''. Now those same people are trying to blame us for the result! Democracy or not, a tiny bit under half of the people who voted are unhappy with the outcome, hard to feel too positive about that. No, I'm not a 'remainer', just a bit miffed that it's come to this when it could easily have been avoided.
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bs14gas
Robin. S. Layer
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 462
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Post by bs14gas on Jun 24, 2016 23:04:38 GMT
We take 'democracy' for granted. You should be fined for not voting (yes I appreciate the irony), but if everyone who did not vote voted remain we wouldn't be in this mess, assuming all those who wanted out voted.
Only time will tell, but I'm truly shocked.
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 24, 2016 23:19:01 GMT
How has democracy failed? Everyone had a vote. All votes count the same. First past the post wins. Simple. Effective. The only issue here is many people are miffed because the result is not what was expected. I really don't think this argument would be put forward if it went the other way. But it would have been the same system. Think maybe the issue here is probably should it ever have been started. In essence it was about UKIP squeezing Cameron over the issue who, for whatever reason, thought he could take him on and win. Then lost. Basically because the political establishment are so out of touch with Mr and Mrs Ordinairy Voter they didn't realise that they were that disillusioned. Cue chaos, bloody nose etc. Cameron would have won had the idiots at the EU not sent him home empty handed from ''negotiations''. Now those same people are trying to blame us for the result! Democracy or not, a tiny bit under half of the people who voted are unhappy with the outcome, hard to feel too positive about that. No, I'm not a 'remainer', just a bit miffed that it's come to this when it could easily have been avoided. And there you have the problem in a nutshell. These people are so up their own backsides with this gravy train project they have grown massively distant from the reality on the ground and all believed they knew better. The ordinary voters could see that, indeed the King of all the idiots -Juncker - made a statement just 24 hours prior to the vote that the EU was not for reforming. Cue the inevitable that many "don't knows" became "outers". What a plonker. When a bloated political elite pull up the drawbridge on the people then there is usually one outcome in the fullness of time.
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shakes
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 122
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Post by shakes on Jun 24, 2016 23:26:27 GMT
You don't divorce your partner over an argument, you compromise and mediate. The EU have already said they need to reform post Brexit. There is a lot of noise from the UK that they didn't truly want out.
This is truly a failure of diplomacy. We couldn't work out compromise.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 1:36:01 GMT
The worst thing is leave didnt think they would win (the muppet voter on BBC FFS) and remain didnt think they would leave No one has any preperation/contingency in place. We will get a PM no one elected who will be derided as Tory scum next week (Boris) by many. Scotland and NI want to look to break free But yeah cracking result I am not against leaving necessarily but all we had was a big slanging match with no facts and BS lies already admitted by that no mark Farage who will no doubt slag of Boris when he doesnt obtain the deals he thinks Britain should get But yeah great result all we had was a big slanging match with no facts and BS lies already admitted by that no mark Farage aye slanging matches eh
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 1:43:00 GMT
How has democracy failed? Everyone had a vote. All votes count the same. First past the post wins. Simple. Effective. The only issue here is many people are miffed because the result is not what was expected. I really don't think this argument would be put forward if it went the other way. But it would have been the same system. Think maybe the issue here is probably should it ever have been started. In essence it was about UKIP squeezing Cameron over the issue who, for whatever reason, thought he could take him on and win. Then lost. Basically because the political establishment are so out of touch with Mr and Mrs Ordinairy Voter they didn't realise that they were that disillusioned. Cue chaos, bloody nose etc. Cameron would have won had the idiots at the EU not sent him home empty handed from ''negotiations''. Now those same people are trying to blame us for the result! Democracy or not, a tiny bit under half of the people who voted are unhappy with the outcome, hard to feel too positive about that. No, I'm not a 'remainer', just a bit miffed that it's come to this when it could easily have been avoided. spot on, the eu called our bluff and 52% stood up to them
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 1:44:35 GMT
You don't divorce your partner over an argument, you compromise and mediate. The EU have already said they need to reform post Brexit. There is a lot of noise from the UK that they didn't truly want out. This is truly a failure of diplomacy. We couldn't work out compromise. we went in febuary and got short-thrift,
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Post by alloutofgas on Jun 25, 2016 5:26:41 GMT
I am absolutely gutted we will now be able to vote for who we want to govern us. Terrible turn of events.
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Post by chelt_gas on Jun 25, 2016 6:33:08 GMT
Looking at this through the media over in Australia then the opinion is that the UK have been like Turkey's voting for Christmas. Australia's initial reaction is which country do we now use as the economic gateway to Europe. In fact the banks here froze all currency exchanges to the UK sterling for six hours this morning as the sentiment is one of such uncertainty. Now we have queues outside of banks where we're loading up on the UK pound hoping that there will be a rebound.
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Teigngas
Steve White
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 265
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Post by Teigngas on Jun 25, 2016 7:10:44 GMT
When this all started I really did not know which way to vote, I think the EU is a hideous bloated gravy train with money for the boys, however leaving is a big step. I tried listening to the arguments, got extremely frustrated by both sides utter bulls**t, tried to sift through it and make as informed a decision as possible.
A few weeks ago I made a decision to vote out, some of the reason (rightly or wrongly) was the attitude of many In campaigners saying anybody that voted out did not know what they were talking about and/or were racist (and that attitude is continuing still on social media). I believe that if these people did not have a superior than thou attitude the result may have been very different.
Why everyone is so shocked about the stock market and pound plummeting surprises me, it is exactly what happens during periods of uncertainty, I predect a steady recovery as people come to realise that the world is not coming to an end, and I truly believe that this country will do well out of EU, but it will be over medium/long term - short term turmoil is to be expected.
I welcome and enjoy discussing the differing opinions but cannot stand the constant accusations of racism/don`t know what you have done.
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Teigngas
Steve White
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 265
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Post by Teigngas on Jun 25, 2016 7:12:03 GMT
Ooh that was a bit heavy, sorry.
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