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Post by mehewmagic on Jul 5, 2014 14:53:28 GMT
yes but mcghee ward graydon etc loads of experience,we simply need to give darrell clarke a chance,theres no other option even the board haters need to give him and his team a chance i think Did he not have a chance last season, a chance to keep us up by securing 8 points from 8 games, including needing just 1 point on the final day against a team already on their holidays, highlighted by not even having a kit packed? Just an observation like...
totally unfair.
they did not at all play like a team on their hols.
they were good. we were average.
why do gasheads always assume the other team is poor just because they don't know much about them?
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Post by swissgas on Jul 5, 2014 15:15:03 GMT
Darrell Clarke. Is he a good man-manager? Is he a good motivator? Is he a good coach? Is he a good tactician? Is he a good scout? So much reliance on critically important decisions affecting the immediate and possible medium/long-term future of this great football club falling on the decision making ability of a 36-year-old manager whose only real previous experience is in the part-time division below. A risk? Rovers fans love to duck the issue. Many of us feel warm and comfortable with slogans like "In McGhee we trust" and "In Ward we trust" Any attempt to debate the strengths and weaknesses of our managers or players is immediately shot down with cries of "give the lad a chance" . When people say "stop moaning until you have seen what he can do" they are really saying "let's put it off until it's too late and then we'll make them the scapegoat" This attitude has allowed Nick Higgs to keep saying it's not his fault because "everyone welcomed the appointment/signing at the time" By talking about the strengths and weaknesses we MIGHT just stimulate someone with the power to actually do something to stop and think for a minute. We might just persuade these people to realize that no manager or player is ever going to be perfect and the way to success is to make them better by building on their strengths and addressing their weaknesses. To carry on hoping for the best will mean we carry on declining as a football club.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 15:25:31 GMT
Darrell Clarke. Is he a good man-manager? Is he a good motivator? Is he a good coach? Is he a good tactician? Is he a good scout? So much reliance on critically important decisions affecting the immediate and possible medium/long-term future of this great football club falling on the decision making ability of a 36-year-old manager whose only real previous experience is in the part-time division below. A risk? Rovers fans love to duck the issue. Many of us feel warm and comfortable with slogans like "In McGhee we trust" and "In Ward we trust" Any attempt to debate the strengths and weaknesses of our managers or players is immediately shot down with cries of "give the lad a chance" . When people say "stop moaning until you have seen what he can do" they are really saying "let's put it off until it's too late and then we'll make them the scapegoat" This attitude has allowed Nick Higgs to keep saying it's not his fault because "everyone welcomed the appointment/signing at the time" By talking about the strengths and weaknesses we MIGHT just stimulate someone with the power to actually do something to stop and think for a minute. We might just persuade these people to realize that no manager or player is ever going to be perfect and the way to success is to make them better by building on their strengths and addressing their weaknesses. To carry on hoping for the best will mean we carry on declining as a football club. instead of the 5 players we have signed which players would you have liked to see at rovers instead?
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Post by swissgas on Jul 5, 2014 15:46:04 GMT
Rovers fans love to duck the issue. Many of us feel warm and comfortable with slogans like "In McGhee we trust" and "In Ward we trust" Any attempt to debate the strengths and weaknesses of our managers or players is immediately shot down with cries of "give the lad a chance" . When people say "stop moaning until you have seen what he can do" they are really saying "let's put it off until it's too late and then we'll make them the scapegoat" This attitude has allowed Nick Higgs to keep saying it's not his fault because "everyone welcomed the appointment/signing at the time" By talking about the strengths and weaknesses we MIGHT just stimulate someone with the power to actually do something to stop and think for a minute. We might just persuade these people to realize that no manager or player is ever going to be perfect and the way to success is to make them better by building on their strengths and addressing their weaknesses. To carry on hoping for the best will mean we carry on declining as a football club. instead of the 5 players we have signed which players would you have liked to see at rovers instead? I can't comment on which specific players should be signed except to say the squad needs to be balanced. Given what we know about managers at Rovers distorting the truth I'm a little nervous about Darrell's constant repetition of the line about Luton thinking they could do it with league players and then finding they couldn't. If I honestly thought we had carried out a detailed assessment to find the best and most effective way of getting out of the Conference and the conclusion was to sign players like White, Taylo, Gosling, Sinclair and Mansell then I'd be quite content. But it's far more likely that Darrell has been given a small budget and told "get on with it" and this is the best he can do so he is trying to justify it. I read somewhere that the Luton side last season actually did include a very high proportion of ex league players but I haven't checked that. The point I'm making though mdkgb is that it's better to debate the strengths and weaknesses of Darrell Clarke openly rather than pretend he's the perfect man for the job. Covering things up isn't doing Rovers any good because it only builds false hopes which on past experience will lead to angry recriminations afterwards. If we say that Darrell is young, seems honest, enthusiastic, forthright and likes attacking football then that is fine. But if we also say that he may be naive, may lack man management skills, may be prone to unwise outburst of emotion , may need experienced help to be effective in dealing with tactical planning, scouting and recruitment, then that's not being anti-Rovers. That is trying to be positive in helping Rovers not repeat the mistakes of the past.
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Post by therealist on Jul 5, 2014 16:10:26 GMT
Darrell Clarke. Is he a good man-manager? Is he a good motivator? Is he a good coach? Is he a good tactician? Is he a good scout? So much reliance on critically important decisions affecting the immediate and possible medium/long-term future of this great football club falling on the decision making ability of a 36-year-old manager whose only real previous experience is in the part-time division below. A risk? Rovers fans love to duck the issue. Many of us feel warm and comfortable with slogans like "In McGhee we trust" and "In Ward we trust" Any attempt to debate the strengths and weaknesses of our managers or players is immediately shot down with cries of "give the lad a chance" . When people say "stop moaning until you have seen what he can do" they are really saying "let's put it off until it's too late and then we'll make them the scapegoat" This attitude has allowed Nick Higgs to keep saying it's not his fault because "everyone welcomed the appointment/signing at the time" By talking about the strengths and weaknesses we MIGHT just stimulate someone with the power to actually do something to stop and think for a minute. We might just persuade these people to realize that no manager or player is ever going to be perfect and the way to success is to make them better by building on their strengths and addressing their weaknesses. To carry on hoping for the best will mean we carry on declining as a football club. I'm sorry to say it, but you're spot on IMHO.
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Post by therealist on Jul 5, 2014 16:18:26 GMT
instead of the 5 players we have signed which players would you have liked to see at rovers instead? I can't comment on which specific players should be signed except to say the squad needs to be balanced. Given what we know about managers at Rovers distorting the truth I'm a little nervous about Darrell's constant repetition of the line about Luton thinking they could do it with league players and then finding they couldn't. If I honestly thought we had carried out a detailed assessment to find the best and most effective way of getting out of the Conference and the conclusion was to sign players like White, Taylo, Gosling, Sinclair and Mansell then I'd be quite content. But it's far more likely that Darrell has been given a small budget and told "get on with it" and this is the best he can do so he is trying to justify it. I read somewhere that the Luton side last season actually did include a very high proportion of ex league players but I haven't checked that. They certainly had one of the most successful and experienced non-league manager's in John Still, an experienced assistant in Terry Harris and a coach in Hakan Heyrettin who has managed in non-league and all have significant contacts/scouts.
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Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
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Post by Peter Parker on Jul 5, 2014 16:27:50 GMT
Lets be honest we have done all they types of managers in recent years. Up and coming, gritty northener, name manager, experienced lower league bloke etc.
I am not ready to criticise Clarke. He seems to admir maybe he tried too much too soon when he took over.
He has the unenviable task of being our first conference manager, but he has a chance to do it his way (depending on the board) and then maybe making himself a bit of a hero here in his own right
He could be the wrong guy, but so could anyone else and on recent seasons anyone is no matter what
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 17:05:30 GMT
swissgas and others are entitled to be uncertain about darrell clarke,lets face it the only good managers are winning ones and in recent years we havnt had many of them,he also faces the problem of an uneven wage structure because we have some players very well paid and still on league contracts in non league level. his solution? to sign 2 players he knows and trusts from salisbury and add mansell and gosling,,remember forest green signed 3 from salibury and there the big budget team im told. i dont want the board to overspend and the few rovers teams that have been sucessfull in our history achieved things on a shoestring budget using just the type of lads weve signed,,,,i was going to name them but theres too many. i think the club will stick with a more realistic wage structure and contract lenths even if we go back up and i think darrell clarke wouldnt mind say tom parkes and ryan brunt leaving to free up more wage bill cash but thats just my opinion of course
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jozer
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Post by jozer on Jul 5, 2014 17:34:54 GMT
Darrell Clarke. Is he a good man-manager? Is he a good motivator? Is he a good coach? Is he a good tactician? Is he a good scout? So much reliance on critically important decisions affecting the immediate and possible medium/long-term future of this great football club falling on the decision making ability of a 36-year-old manager whose only real previous experience is in the part-time division below. A risk? In attempting to answer the highlighted question only, I was a little surprised with how forthright DC was when speaking to the media about his squad, after he had taken over the reins from JW last season. For years and years I have become accustomed to hearing the manager of the day excuse poor performances (both team and individuals), by saying that the matter would be dealt with in the dressing room. I always believed that it might have been a good move for the manager to actually speak his mind honestly in public about performances. But after last seasons experiences I now have my doubts, as it appeared to have the opposite effects, and instead of motivating the players it only served to demotivate them. Or had they decided that because of what the manager said in public, that they had no future at the club past the season's end, so what was the point in trying anyway? It's a tricky business is man-management, too much stick and not enough carrot can be as bad as too much carrot and not enough stick. And the clue (for me at any rate) is in the question, man-management is entirely different from one player to the next. But after hearing and reading it all towards the end of last season, I firmly believe that to criticise players and the team in public is a dangerous thing to do.
fadh A terrible thing to do. All the most sucessful managers NEVER was their dirty linen in public. Slagging off your players to the press is as good as saying you can't discipline them, so your going to tell the fans on them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 17:43:43 GMT
In attempting to answer the highlighted question only, I was a little surprised with how forthright DC was when speaking to the media about his squad, after he had taken over the reins from JW last season. For years and years I have become accustomed to hearing the manager of the day excuse poor performances (both team and individuals), by saying that the matter would be dealt with in the dressing room. I always believed that it might have been a good move for the manager to actually speak his mind honestly in public about performances. But after last seasons experiences I now have my doubts, as it appeared to have the opposite effects, and instead of motivating the players it only served to demotivate them. Or had they decided that because of what the manager said in public, that they had no future at the club past the season's end, so what was the point in trying anyway? It's a tricky business is man-management, too much stick and not enough carrot can be as bad as too much carrot and not enough stick. And the clue (for me at any rate) is in the question, man-management is entirely different from one player to the next. But after hearing and reading it all towards the end of last season, I firmly believe that to criticise players and the team in public is a dangerous thing to do.
fadh A terrible thing to do. All the most sucessful managers NEVER was their dirty linen in public. Slagging off your players to the press is as good as saying you can't discipline them, so your going to tell the fans on them. brian clough,harry redknapp and jose morinho have all been critical of there players in public at times,,were they sucessfull? ummmmmmm yes
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Post by swissgas on Jul 5, 2014 18:17:26 GMT
swissgas and others are entitled to be uncertain about darrell clarke,lets face it the only good managers are winning ones and in recent years we havnt had many of them,he also faces the problem of an uneven wage structure because we have some players very well paid and still on league contracts in non league level. his solution? to sign 2 players he knows and trusts from salisbury and add mansell and gosling,,remember forest green signed 3 from salibury and there the big budget team im told. i dont want the board to overspend and the few rovers teams that have been sucessfull in our history achieved things on a shoestring budget using just the type of lads weve signed,,,,i was going to name them but theres too many. i think the club will stick with a more realistic wage structure and contract lenths even if we go back up and i think darrell clarke wouldnt mind say tom parkes and ryan brunt leaving to free up more wage bill cash but thats just my opinion of course You may be right about Darrell Clarke preferring certain players to leave. There were some rumours last season about some players not giving Darrell the respect he was entitled to and I agree that it's better for Darrell to have players he can work with and get the best out of rather than technically better players who he is unable to get performing 100%. When we talk about Rovers teams historically doing well with players brought in on a shoestring I think we have to consider the calibre of managers and calibre of assistant managers who made those teams what they were. I really don't think that Clarke/Stewart can be compared to Francis/Hibbitt or Trollope/Lawrence and even though we are in a much inferior league the balance still has to be right. Not to give it our number one best shot in the first Conference season is IMO a big mistake.
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Post by phillistine on Jul 5, 2014 18:57:46 GMT
.......To carry on hoping for the best will mean we carry on declining as a football club. At this moment in time every football fan in the coountry is hoping that there club do well - some will some wont. To suggest that hoping for the best results in decline is simply not true
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aghast
David Williams
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Post by aghast on Jul 5, 2014 21:04:20 GMT
This stint with DC should be the board's last chance. As mentioned above, we've tried every kind of manager in recent years, and none of them have worked. Clarke was brought in so late, with a team in disarray, that he was never going to be likely to save us. He should have, especially in the last game with only a point required, but didn't. However, he wasn't given long enough to prove himself with his own players. If he fails in stage 2 of his project, and we are in some disastrous position near Christmas, then he can join the long list of proven failed managers.
He can then be disposed of, and the Board should admit that they are incapable under any circumstances of appointing a manager who can achieve success at the club, under the conditions they are required to work with at BRFC, such as the scouting and training policies, the power, influence and policies of Board members, the financial planning policies, and the relationship with the people the club interact with every day, such as the fans, the press, the agents and the potential investors in us or our assets.
They won't then admit this, but they should. They should bring in outside help, but they won't.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 22:03:07 GMT
This stint with DC should be the board's last chance. As mentioned above, we've tried every kind of manager in recent years, and none of them have worked. Clarke was brought in so late, with a team in disarray, that he was never going to be likely to save us. He should have, especially in the last game with only a point required, but didn't. However, he wasn't given long enough to prove himself with his own players. If he fails in stage 2 of his project, and we are in some disastrous position near Christmas, then he can join the long list of proven failed managers. He can then be disposed of, and the Board should admit that they are incapable under any circumstances of appointing a manager who can achieve success at the club, under the conditions they are required to work with at BRFC, such as the scouting and training policies, the power, influence and policies of Board members, the financial planning policies, and the relationship with the people the club interact with every day, such as the fans, the press, the agents and the potential investors in us or our assets. They won't then admit this, but they should. They should bring in outside help, but they won't. anyone in the world buy the board out ?? any takers?? no ok then this is our board is it so hard to understand ? buy them out or else forget it they can have any amount of failures unless someone buys them out ? how hard is that to understand?
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aghast
David Williams
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Post by aghast on Jul 5, 2014 22:32:27 GMT
Are you a bit drunk?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 23:05:19 GMT
This stint with DC should be the board's last chance. As mentioned above, we've tried every kind of manager in recent years, and none of them have worked. Clarke was brought in so late, with a team in disarray, that he was never going to be likely to save us. He should have, especially in the last game with only a point required, but didn't. However, he wasn't given long enough to prove himself with his own players. If he fails in stage 2 of his project, and we are in some disastrous position near Christmas, then he can join the long list of proven failed managers. He can then be disposed of, and the Board should admit that they are incapable under any circumstances of appointing a manager who can achieve success at the club, under the conditions they are required to work with at BRFC, such as the scouting and training policies, the power, influence and policies of Board members, the financial planning policies, and the relationship with the people the club interact with every day, such as the fans, the press, the agents and the potential investors in us or our assets. They won't then admit this, but they should. They should bring in outside help, but they won't. anyone in the world buy the board out ?? any takers?? no ok then this is our board is it so hard to understand ? buy them out or else forget it they can have any amount of failures unless someone buys them out ? how hard is that to understand? Do try to keep up with what's happening. Swiss says that they were contacted by a serious foreign investor's representatives, but didn't even reply! But they have nothing to sell, a single asset which at the present rate will soon be worth less than the loans they have secured against it, and those loans are only the result of their own poor decision making. You would be doing them a favour taking the whole shooting match off of them for £1. Is that hard to understand?
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Post by swissgas on Jul 5, 2014 23:10:19 GMT
The thread is about whether employing Darrell Clarke as manager is a risk.
I would say employing any manager is a risk and Darrell is a bigger risk than most because he is inexperienced and unproven at Conference Premier level.
But if you don't manage the manager properly then the risk is far greater than it needs to be.
It might be that the essence of our problem is Nick's background as a building contractor and that he is used to contracting people to do a specific job and expecting them to do it. An electrical contractor is expected to be competent to do electrical work, a ground works contractor is expected to be competent to do ground works, a plumbing contractor is expected to be competent to do plumbing work etc etc
But when you have to lead a team of people whom you directly employ your mindset needs to be different. You have to make these people tick, inspire them to work at optimum efficiency, find the secret of getting the best out of them and deal with those (awfully boring) strengths and weaknesses. You can't just employ a manager and expect him to do a job like you would a contractor in the building industry because it is your responsibility to make that manager effective.
I'm afraid if Nick just leaves the manager to his own devices then he is running a very high risk of him ending up exactly like his predecessors and that's not being fair to Darrell let alone our football club.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 23:14:15 GMT
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Post by therealist on Jul 5, 2014 23:21:42 GMT
The thread is about whether employing Darrell Clarke as manager is a risk. I would say employing any manager is a risk and Darrell is a bigger risk than most because he is inexperienced and unproven at Conference Premier level. But if you don't manage the manager properly then the risk is far greater than it needs to be. It might be that the essence of our problem is Nick's background as a building contractor and that he is used to contracting people to do specific jobs and expecting them to do it. An electrical contractor is expected to be competent to do electrical work, a ground works contractor is expected to be competent to do ground works, a plumbing contractor is expected to be competent to do plumbing work etc etc But when you have to lead a team of people whom you directly employ your mindset needs to be different. You have to make these people tick, inspire them to work at optimum efficiency, find the secret of getting the best out of them and deal with those (awfully boring) strengths and weaknesses. You can't just employ a manager and expect him to do a job like you would a contractor in the building industry because it is your responsibility to make that manager effective. I'm afraid if Nick just leaves the manager to his own devices then he is running a very high risk of him ending up exactly like his predecessors and that's not being fair to Darrell let alone our football club. Exactly why I said he's being hung out to dry. So much emphasis on a young, inexperienced manager at a crucial time for the football club. A 36-year-old manager who's only real previous experience being in the part-time league below is now expected to manage, coach, analyse, scout and do everything, with the only help coming from Marcus Stewart. While Darrell and Marcus are looking after the first-team... Who is looking after the development players? Who is scouting future opposition? Who is scouting future signings during the season?
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aghast
David Williams
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Post by aghast on Jul 5, 2014 23:36:37 GMT
Why are you calling me a smartass? I'm not trying to be smart, and would not like to be thought of as an ass. I'm just trying to point out that the Board have failed with every appointment they've tried. I'm not saying they should resign, nor that somebody should buy us out.
I am, however, suggesting that if by Christmas we find ourselves in a messy spot in the Conference, then the Board will finally have to admit that they need to do something different to save the club.
That's all really. I'm a fan. I say the Board might need to admit they need help. You call me names. Enjoy your Disprin tomorrow.
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