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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 12:52:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 15:47:03 GMT
By being good footballers?
Coaching needs to change from top to bottom in England, oh and the coaching of coaches. We're losing too many good coaches to Wales who make badges affordable.
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Jul 24, 2015 22:25:53 GMT
I'm sure our older viewers will remember that when football was 'invented' in 1992 we were told it was purely for the benefit of the England team  |
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jul 25, 2015 11:23:58 GMT
I'm sure our older viewers will remember that when football was 'invented' in 1992 we were told it was purely for the benefit of the England team The 25 years prior to the 'invention' of football were hardly stellar years for England .... |
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Jul 25, 2015 13:18:08 GMT
I'm sure our older viewers will remember that when football was 'invented' in 1992 we were told it was purely for the benefit of the England team The 25 years prior to the 'invention' of football were hardly stellar years for England .... They weren't, but my point was , that when the Premier League was first mooted, many complained that it would just lead to the rich getting richer (which is exactly what has happened), whereas the football authorities were claiming it would bring huge benefits to the England team, which was obviously a load of bollocks, it was always about the money (and always will be).
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jul 26, 2015 13:34:20 GMT
The 25 years prior to the 'invention' of football were hardly stellar years for England .... They weren't, but my point was , that when the Premier League was first mooted, many complained that it would just lead to the rich getting richer (which is exactly what has happened), whereas the football authorities were claiming it would bring huge benefits to the England team, which was obviously a load of bollocks, it was always about the money (and always will be).
Fair points Rex but those who thought for themselves knew from the start that the Premier League would look after itself & the only chance of England improving was as an aside. What I would argue is that the matchday experience has improved unbelievably and that is all down to the marketing of the Premier League that requires all the clubs & grounds to look the best & state of the art. The big failing was that the FA & Football League didn't have the imagination to set-up the Premier League and take control of the game. |
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Rex
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Post by Rex on Jul 26, 2015 14:34:52 GMT
They weren't, but my point was , that when the Premier League was first mooted, many complained that it would just lead to the rich getting richer (which is exactly what has happened), whereas the football authorities were claiming it would bring huge benefits to the England team, which was obviously a load of bollocks, it was always about the money (and always will be).
Fair points Rex but those who thought for themselves knew from the start that the Premier League would look after itself & the only chance of England improving was as an aside. What I would argue is that the matchday experience has improved unbelievably and that is all down to the marketing of the Premier League that requires all the clubs & grounds to look the best & state of the art. The big failing was that the FA & Football League didn't have the imagination to set-up the Premier League and take control of the game. I agree to a certain extent, but I just didn't like the bulls**t at the start when people were saying it was all for the benefit of the England team, when it was so patently obvious it wasn't.
Although I preferred top flight football before 1992, I wouldn't argue for one second that football is far more popular now than it was back then. Football seemed doomed for a while, it certainly doesn't now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 14:53:23 GMT
Fair points Rex but those who thought for themselves knew from the start that the Premier League would look after itself & the only chance of England improving was as an aside. What I would argue is that the matchday experience has improved unbelievably and that is all down to the marketing of the Premier League that requires all the clubs & grounds to look the best & state of the art. The big failing was that the FA & Football League didn't have the imagination to set-up the Premier League and take control of the game. I agree to a certain extent, but I just didn't like the bulls*** at the start when people were saying it was all for the benefit of the England team, when it was so patently obvious it wasn't.
Although I preferred top flight football before 1992, I wouldn't argue for one second that football is far more popular now than it was back then. Football seemed doomed for a while, it certainly doesn't now.
We'll soon see how much further behind Scotland have fallen in recent years. |
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jul 26, 2015 14:55:35 GMT
I agree to a certain extent, but I just didn't like the bulls*** at the start when people were saying it was all for the benefit of the England team, when it was so patently obvious it wasn't.
Although I preferred top flight football before 1992, I wouldn't argue for one second that football is far more popular now than it was back then. Football seemed doomed for a while, it certainly doesn't now.
We'll soon see how much further behind Scotland have fallen in recent years. Really? Think Woy has just been given a bye through to Russia 2018, where of course they won't be any, oh no not a word, of racism uttered. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 14:59:40 GMT
We'll soon see how much further behind Scotland have fallen in recent years. Really? Think Woy has just been given a bye through to Russia 2018, where of course they won't be any, oh no not a word, of racism uttered. If that nice Mr Putin says that Blatter is just a victim of a media witch-hunt, that's good enough for me. |
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Peter Parker
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Post by Peter Parker on Jul 27, 2015 7:09:13 GMT
Perhap some of the decent players we do produce, shouldn't up sticks and join Man U, Chelsea, Man C etc when they come sniffing about after one good season and then sit on the bench, play fewer games and don't actually develop
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 30, 2015 11:13:42 GMT
Perhap some of the decent players we do produce, shouldn't up sticks and join Man U, Chelsea, Man C etc when they come sniffing about after one good season and then sit on the bench, play fewer games and don't actually develop
I think this is the real issue with the Premier League full stop - the amount of talent that is sat on the bench playing minor/backup roles for big clubs when they'd be a superstar/major performer at a smaller side. The stereotype of English football fits that role quite well - 'good team players', 'good work ethic', 'happy to be versatile' etc. Whether that's true or not is a whole other question but I do think there's a tendency for players to do that because they're getting fantastic money to do so. Whereas perhaps in other countries they'd have moved on, maybe even gone abroad. The incentive just isn't really there for our players to fully developed themselves. They play in a league in which it seems an accepted that English players are overpaid. Look at the careers of people like Shaun Wright-Phillips or James Milner. Very good players (whether they were/are actually that good is not vital here) who for a short period of time were stars at clubs below the very top tier. But who then spent a lot of their subsequent careers as squad players at one of the big clubs. I'd have far rather have seen James Milner have stayed at Villa or Newcastle and for that club to have built the side around him than to have gone to Man City where he's been effective but on intermittently 1st choice and definitely not a star player in that team. Probably better for James Milner's development, definitely more interesting to watch for fans etc. But you can hardly blame those type of players for taking that career trajectory - it makes perfect sense for them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 12:51:33 GMT
Perhap some of the decent players we do produce, shouldn't up sticks and join Man U, Chelsea, Man C etc when they come sniffing about after one good season and then sit on the bench, play fewer games and don't actually develop
Exactly.
Callum Chambers is a perfect example, looks like a long term solution at right back for England, now struggling to get on the pitch because Hector Bellerin is 1st choice, so Chambers is restricted to cup matches or cover for Bellerin or one of the central defenders being injured, and he isn't even first choice as central defence cover, they have Gabriel for that. So Callum is dependant on either a Spaniard, a Frenchman, a German or a Brazilian being ill, injured or suspended before he gets any game time.
Southampton enquired about him going back there on a season long loan, Wenger said 'No'.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 13:27:30 GMT
So is it Wenger to blame or Chambers?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 16:46:25 GMT
So is it Wenger to blame or Chambers? It's the distribution of money isn't it?
Wenger didn't even need Chambers, he already had England right back Carl Jenkinson, he's now on loan at West Aaaaam.
Chambers knew full well that Arsenal would have at least 2 players for every position and that most, if not all of them would be internationals..
Hereford were wound up for debts of £110,000 to HMRC and about £140,000 to players, staff, other clubs and local creditors. That amount won't buy you the services of Wayne Rooney or Alexis Sanchez for 7 days.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 16:53:57 GMT
So is it Wenger to blame or Chambers? It's the distribution of money isn't it?
Wenger didn't even need Chambers, he already had England right back Carl Jenkinson, he's now on loan at West Aaaaam.
Chambers knew full well that Arsenal would have at least 2 players for every position and that most, if not all of them would be internationals..
Hereford were wound up for debts of £110,000 to HMRC and about £140,000 to players, staff, other clubs and local creditors. That amount won't buy you the services of Wayne Rooney or Alexis Sanchez for 7 days.
Absolutely, I agree. But knowing all that, Chambers (and others like him) take the money every time. They'd be better players staying put for longer, and still earn the same money later on. There ought to be age-related wage caps, in my opinion. Or just an overall wage limit on a squad. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 17:01:39 GMT
It's the distribution of money isn't it?
Wenger didn't even need Chambers, he already had England right back Carl Jenkinson, he's now on loan at West Aaaaam.
Chambers knew full well that Arsenal would have at least 2 players for every position and that most, if not all of them would be internationals..
Hereford were wound up for debts of £110,000 to HMRC and about £140,000 to players, staff, other clubs and local creditors. That amount won't buy you the services of Wayne Rooney or Alexis Sanchez for 7 days.
Absolutely, I agree. But knowing all that, Chambers (and others like him) take the money every time. They'd be better players staying put for longer, and still earn the same money later on. There ought to be age-related wage caps, in my opinion. Or just an overall wage limit on a squad. I guess that a player's career is never more than one injury away from being ended?
Maybe the Chambers situation does have one mitigating factor from the player's point of view, last summer there was a mass exodus from St Mary's, from the outside it looked like a sinking ship, so maybe Callum thought that fighting for a place at Arsenal was the better option? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 17:05:42 GMT
Absolutely, I agree. But knowing all that, Chambers (and others like him) take the money every time. They'd be better players staying put for longer, and still earn the same money later on. There ought to be age-related wage caps, in my opinion. Or just an overall wage limit on a squad. I guess that a player's career is never more than one injury away from being ended?
Maybe the Chambers situation does have one mitigating factor from the player's point of view, last summer there was a mass exodus from St Mary's, from the outside it looked like a sinking ship, so maybe Callum thought that fighting for a place at Arsenal was the better option? I agree again. Just frustrating that we keep seeing promising young English players join big clubs and stagnate. What I'd do, if I could, is take all the unnecessary money out of football. But that's impossible. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Jul 30, 2015 17:17:16 GMT
So is it Wenger to blame or Chambers? Well it's neither really is it? It's the incentive structure. Chambers is probably on good money at Arsenal and I can't imagine he's exactly banging down the manager's door demanding to play or be transferred. Wenger on the other hand knows he has a quality, reliable backup who (and here is a crucial bit that I think gets missed sometimes) will probably hold his value despite not getting any game time because he is a English and English players are overpaid/overvalued in the Premier League. If he was another nationality his value might go down a bit without significant game time but he's always likely to be worth a heck of a lot as a British player. That just seems to be a fact. In which case where is the big incentive for either player or manager for him to move? If anything, the transfer is more of a risk for both? If Wenger lets him go and he does really well then he risks being panned (by fans and, I would have thought, his bosses) for letting a young English talent move clubs. On the other hand if Chambers struggles/gets injured at the wrong time then he risks giving up a very well paid fairly secure gig for a rather more insecure looking career trajectory. Let's be honest, it takes a bit of gumption for anyone to take a move down the pecking order in any industry especially if the immediate financial rewards for doing so are negligible. I think this is a big flaw with the Premier League/club football generally. In the US they have completely monetarised their sports leagues but not so much the players themselves. Sure, they are paid craploads and clearly do have huge commercial value etc but that tends to be exploited for the benefit of the sport itself rather than the individual clubs (revenue sharing etc). Players are not bought and sold so they don't have this same asset value as a player, plus you have salary caps etc. In other words in US Sport (beyond their considerable wages of course) a player's sporting value is kept separate from their commercial value. The result is relative parity in the competition on the field and, more importantly, individual players (and their clubs) are incentivised to make sure they fulfill their potential. There's no value in sitting a quality player in the bench in those competitions at all. Rather than in club football, which is like the wild west, it's very much to the victor go all the spoils. The result is top heavy leagues in which talent is monopolised. This is increasing at all levels - so there's fewer and fewer quality youth players for clubs to potentially find because big clubs have hoovered them up. This not only hollows out smaller clubs and makes the competitions themselves increasingly uncompetitive but it also creates a massive waste of talent. Without replicating that US franchise Model (probably impossible and a disaster for supporters of clubs like Rovers) it's hard to see what can be done about that but I honestly feel the fact that young players are massive financial assets to clubs (particularly if they are British) is a problem. |
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jul 30, 2015 19:03:58 GMT
Can't agree that American sport is a good example on 3 counts:
1. Fans would be no more happy that are 'monetarised' sport ended up diverting money from the players to the clubs and by default the owners than the current structure where the players get most of the money;
2. Would we want a system whereby players have litle choice over who they play for, you know the situation your the top player at college from one of the southern states looking forward to playing somewhere warm and Green Bay have a crap season ....;
3. American sport is a closed shop they is no interest in the likes of Bristol Rovers ... goodnight irene.
But a problem does exist in football and it will get worse for 2 reasons:
1. Positive discrimination the FA now seeking to force clubs to include more English or homegrown players (like say a Fabregas) into squads so the value of the better homegrown players will increase because clubs have to have them regrdless of whether they really want them, so they buy the best of the rest just to make up the numbers (if you need to understand how positive discrimination fails look at South Africa where companies have to employ x number of black people to qualify for government contracts, the black people paid to make up those numbers doing nothing think it's great system);
2. Clubs when not buying the best of the rest of 'homegrown' players will buy abroad because they can get players that have already played in the top league in their country, perhaps even getting a few caps, thus seem less of a risk (perhaps understandably). Of course is it just the Man City's, Arsenal's or Chelsea's doing this? Well I don't really see many rumours linking Swansea or Southampton to buying 'homegrown' players to replace their depleted ranks.
In short we're pretty stuck with the system we got & certainly becoming more Americanised (I wonder where the Premier League marketing model come from?) won't improve things for the England national team.
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