jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313 
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Post by jackthegas on May 3, 2015 17:42:25 GMT
They are mediocre, unfortunately so are too many of our players. They've bowled pretty well but this is test cricket. You expect that. We've given them too many soft wickets and we'd probably have bowled them out for 50 runs fewer had Moeen and Root bowled fewer pies. Very frustrating. Maybe but that was a pretty arrogant comment for a team with a shaky recent record away from home. I think Windies have looked very fired up in this series and they definitely well enough to deserve the chance to steel a share of the spoils. The fact is England went through a period in which we had a world class strike bowler in his prime and a world class spinner; history says that'll win you a lot of Test Matches in all conditions. Now England has an ageing world class strike bowler and very inconsistent spin; that will win you less especially away from home. Anderson has had very little help from others in this series - England won one match off his back and are in with a shout in this one largely due to his contributions. Very few other parts of our lineup have performed to the necessary standard to justify winning Test Matches. We are back to having a lot of players who do good things and are basically decent enough, but we are a bit lacking in match winners outside of our own conditions I think. There's nothing new about that - it's been the case for England team for most of our history. Mainly because England has never really produced World Class match winning spinners; we produce truckloads of very good containing spinners of the Tredwell variety who can win games if the conditions are favourable to them. We don't produce spinners that are a threat across the board. Swann was almost unique in that respect. Windies have gone off well in this run chase. There's going to be big pressure on Root and Ali. It was an unnecessary comment from Graves but he's right. The West Indies have been a shambles and we should beat them. We've made things hard for ourselves by picking a middle order batsman instead of an opener and not picking a second spinner. If we don't win the series the chief selector should go and there will be a question mark hanging over the coach and captain too. They're both way too conservative in their outlook for my liking. Jordan has had a good 5 minutes mind! |
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Post by lostinspace on May 3, 2015 17:50:39 GMT
35-2 with Brathwaite gone for 25 and Hope 9, interesting last session looming, make or break for the Windies
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on May 3, 2015 18:22:53 GMT
Maybe but that was a pretty arrogant comment for a team with a shaky recent record away from home. I think Windies have looked very fired up in this series and they definitely well enough to deserve the chance to steel a share of the spoils. The fact is England went through a period in which we had a world class strike bowler in his prime and a world class spinner; history says that'll win you a lot of Test Matches in all conditions. Now England has an ageing world class strike bowler and very inconsistent spin; that will win you less especially away from home. Anderson has had very little help from others in this series - England won one match off his back and are in with a shout in this one largely due to his contributions. Very few other parts of our lineup have performed to the necessary standard to justify winning Test Matches. We are back to having a lot of players who do good things and are basically decent enough, but we are a bit lacking in match winners outside of our own conditions I think. There's nothing new about that - it's been the case for England team for most of our history. Mainly because England has never really produced World Class match winning spinners; we produce truckloads of very good containing spinners of the Tredwell variety who can win games if the conditions are favourable to them. We don't produce spinners that are a threat across the board. Swann was almost unique in that respect. Windies have gone off well in this run chase. There's going to be big pressure on Root and Ali. It was an unnecessary comment from Graves but he's right. The West Indies have been a shambles and we should beat them. We've made things hard for ourselves by picking a middle order batsman instead of an opener and not picking a second spinner. If we don't win the series the chief selector should go and there will be a question mark hanging over the coach and captain too. They're both way too conservative in their outlook for my liking. Jordan has had a good 5 minutes mind! Yeah - but that in itself is a bit of an attitude problem. Give Trott a chance because we kind of think we can ease him back in against a weak Windies lineup. But, actually, Shannon Gabriel and Jerome Taylor are pretty decent with the new ball in their own conditions. We have treated this series as a warm-up for the next ones. We are far too focused on Ashes series and forget that Test Series have a value in their own right. Nothing wrong with developing players but we've been very slapdash in our approach. What is the role of Ben Stokes in this team? What is the role of Moeen Ali in this team? Good players with potential, undoubtedly, but it's not clear that England have a strategy for how they want to use them and how they want to develop them into match winners. Yes, Cook and Moores are very conservative and that will be a big reason why we don't win the series if Windies chase these down. But I think a bigger one is that they don't have a clear strategy for how we win matches. Jordan is a great sparkplug cricketer - he makes things happen. This has been a really good Test match irrespective of England's situation. It has gone backwards and forwards; Samuels is now putting Windies back on top here. |
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Post by lostinspace on May 3, 2015 19:16:20 GMT
80 - 4 ......itchy feet and fingers in the W I eleven
Samuels gone for 20
Chanderpaul gone for duck [underperformed in this series imv]
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on May 3, 2015 20:13:19 GMT
80 - 4 ......itchy feet and fingers in the W I eleven Samuels gone for 20 Chanderpaul gone for duck [underperformed in this series imv] Sadly I think Chanderpaul might have held on a bit too long in an attempt to pass Lara's record. Funny game though - again I thought England could turn the screw at that point but now Blackwood and particularly Bravo has swung it back Windies way. A couple of quick wickets changes everything again though so very much all to play for. I imagine Windies are hoping these 2 can take them within striking distance of a whirlwind knock from one of their lower middle order if necessary. Right now though Bravo may be playing the match winning innings. |
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Post by jackthegas on May 3, 2015 20:58:44 GMT
It was an unnecessary comment from Graves but he's right. The West Indies have been a shambles and we should beat them. We've made things hard for ourselves by picking a middle order batsman instead of an opener and not picking a second spinner. If we don't win the series the chief selector should go and there will be a question mark hanging over the coach and captain too. They're both way too conservative in their outlook for my liking. Jordan has had a good 5 minutes mind! Yeah - but that in itself is a bit of an attitude problem. Give Trott a chance because we kind of think we can ease him back in against a weak Windies lineup. But, actually, Shannon Gabriel and Jerome Taylor are pretty decent with the new ball in their own conditions. We have treated this series as a warm-up for the next ones. We are far too focused on Ashes series and forget that Test Series have a value in their own right. Nothing wrong with developing players but we've been very slapdash in our approach. What is the role of Ben Stokes in this team? What is the role of Moeen Ali in this team? Good players with potential, undoubtedly, but it's not clear that England have a strategy for how they want to use them and how they want to develop them into match winners. Yes, Cook and Moores are very conservative and that will be a big reason why we don't win the series if Windies chase these down. But I think a bigger one is that they don't have a clear strategy for how we win matches. Jordan is a great sparkplug cricketer - he makes things happen. This has been a really good Test match irrespective of England's situation. It has gone backwards and forwards; Samuels is now putting Windies back on top here. Moeen has basically bowled how we all thought he would before he made his debut in this series. He's a gifted cricketer but he's still learning and rushing him over to the Caribbean to play as the front line spinner is scandalously bad management. I actually disagree with your point about using this series as a warm up. If we were of that mindset we'd have rested Broad, Anderson and Root. Not having a clear strategy to win matches sounds about right though. That makes the coach and captains position untenable in my eyes. A lot of our success was down to Swann and Anderson but we were also very well drilled and squeezed every ounce of talent out of our players. That just isn't happening at the moment. Players are coming into the side and going backwards - with a couple of notable exceptions. It's going to be a long summer |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on May 3, 2015 21:08:29 GMT
Yeah - but that in itself is a bit of an attitude problem. Give Trott a chance because we kind of think we can ease him back in against a weak Windies lineup. But, actually, Shannon Gabriel and Jerome Taylor are pretty decent with the new ball in their own conditions. We have treated this series as a warm-up for the next ones. We are far too focused on Ashes series and forget that Test Series have a value in their own right. Nothing wrong with developing players but we've been very slapdash in our approach. What is the role of Ben Stokes in this team? What is the role of Moeen Ali in this team? Good players with potential, undoubtedly, but it's not clear that England have a strategy for how they want to use them and how they want to develop them into match winners. Yes, Cook and Moores are very conservative and that will be a big reason why we don't win the series if Windies chase these down. But I think a bigger one is that they don't have a clear strategy for how we win matches. Jordan is a great sparkplug cricketer - he makes things happen. This has been a really good Test match irrespective of England's situation. It has gone backwards and forwards; Samuels is now putting Windies back on top here. Moeen has basically bowled how we all thought he would before he made his debut in this series. He's a gifted cricketer but he's still learning and rushing him over to the Caribbean to play as the front line spinner is scandalously bad management. I actually disagree with your point about using this series as a warm up. If we were of that mindset we'd have rested Broad, Anderson and Root. Not having a clear strategy to win matches sounds about right though. That makes the coach and captains position untenable in my eyes. A lot of our success was down to Swann and Anderson but we were also very well drilled and squeezed every ounce of talent out of our players. That just isn't happening at the moment. Players are coming into the side and going backwards - with a couple of notable exceptions. It's going to be a long summer Yes, and that's the point. It's all very well having talented players but cricket is a strategic game and we're not getting the best out of them because we seem to lack strategy. On Moeen I just think we want him to be something that he isn't. For all his county career he has been a classy, aggressive batsman who bowled a bit more than occasionally. He's never shown any signs of being a consistent match winning spinner and he hasn't been developed as such. To wait until a guy gets to Test level and then him expect him to develop into something completely different seems crazy. If you want him to be a Test player, the focus on Moeen should be turning him into a World Class aggressive Number 6 batsman who can provide very able support with the ball to a frontline spinner. I just think it's pie in the sky to expect him to transform the type of player he is in the Test arena. Square pegs in round holes springs to mind. I don't think he ever will be a frontline spinner - but he'll always be a very good support spinner and he could be a major asset at number 6 if he could just become a little bit more selective. The point I was making on the warm up was not that we were literally treating this as a warm-up. Just that the way the culture around English cricket has developed seems to treat nearly everything as second order to the Ashes. |
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 313
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Post by jackthegas on May 3, 2015 21:23:43 GMT
Moeen has basically bowled how we all thought he would before he made his debut in this series. He's a gifted cricketer but he's still learning and rushing him over to the Caribbean to play as the front line spinner is scandalously bad management. I actually disagree with your point about using this series as a warm up. If we were of that mindset we'd have rested Broad, Anderson and Root. Not having a clear strategy to win matches sounds about right though. That makes the coach and captains position untenable in my eyes. A lot of our success was down to Swann and Anderson but we were also very well drilled and squeezed every ounce of talent out of our players. That just isn't happening at the moment. Players are coming into the side and going backwards - with a couple of notable exceptions. It's going to be a long summer Yes, and that's the point. It's all very well having talented players but cricket is a strategic game and we're not getting the best out of them because we seem to lack strategy. On Moeen I just think we want him to be something that he isn't. For all his county career he has been a classy, aggressive batsman who bowled a bit more than occasionally. He's never shown any signs of being a consistent match winning spinner and he hasn't been developed as such. To wait until a guy gets to Test level and then him expect him to develop into something completely different seems crazy. If you want him to be a Test player, the focus on Moeen should be turning him into a World Class aggressive Number 6 batsman who can provide very able support with the ball to a frontline spinner. I just think it's pie in the sky to expect him to transform the type of player he is in the Test arena. Square pegs in round holes springs to mind. I don't think he ever will be a frontline spinner - but he'll always be a very good support spinner and he could be a major asset at number 6 if he could just become a little bit more selective. The point I was making on the warm up was not that we were literally treating this as a warm-up. Just that the way the culture around English cricket has developed seems to treat nearly everything as second order to the Ashes. Yeh I think Moeen could play as part of a 5 man attack in seam friendly conditions as the only spinner but you can't expect him to win you matches on what are basically sub continental pitches. If the selectors think Rashid is the best we have then they should have played him. What else could we do to develop quality spinners as it's clearly a problem? I think we have some talented young spinners but we don't play enough 4 day cricket in the height of summer. It's too easy to get by with a 70-75mph seamer on a green wicket in April or May. Someone like Borthwick is a good example. He had ability but he just doesn't get enough overs to develop. Azeem Rafiq is another example. He's got talent but he can't find a county following his release from Yorkshire. Sides would rather pay a bang average seamer than invest in a young, raw spinner and that's partly because the fixture list is weighted so that the rewards for finding a class spinner are relatively small. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on May 3, 2015 22:09:18 GMT
Yes, and that's the point. It's all very well having talented players but cricket is a strategic game and we're not getting the best out of them because we seem to lack strategy. On Moeen I just think we want him to be something that he isn't. For all his county career he has been a classy, aggressive batsman who bowled a bit more than occasionally. He's never shown any signs of being a consistent match winning spinner and he hasn't been developed as such. To wait until a guy gets to Test level and then him expect him to develop into something completely different seems crazy. If you want him to be a Test player, the focus on Moeen should be turning him into a World Class aggressive Number 6 batsman who can provide very able support with the ball to a frontline spinner. I just think it's pie in the sky to expect him to transform the type of player he is in the Test arena. Square pegs in round holes springs to mind. I don't think he ever will be a frontline spinner - but he'll always be a very good support spinner and he could be a major asset at number 6 if he could just become a little bit more selective. The point I was making on the warm up was not that we were literally treating this as a warm-up. Just that the way the culture around English cricket has developed seems to treat nearly everything as second order to the Ashes. Yeh I think Moeen could play as part of a 5 man attack in seam friendly conditions as the only spinner but you can't expect him to win you matches on what are basically sub continental pitches. If the selectors think Rashid is the best we have then they should have played him. What else could we do to develop quality spinners as it's clearly a problem? I think we have some talented young spinners but we don't play enough 4 day cricket in the height of summer. It's too easy to get by with a 70-75mph seamer on a green wicket in April or May. Someone like Borthwick is a good example. He had ability but he just doesn't get enough overs to develop. Azeem Rafiq is another example. He's got talent but he can't find a county following his release from Yorkshire. Sides would rather pay a bang average seamer than invest in a young, raw spinner and that's partly because the fixture list is weighted so that the rewards for finding a class spinner are relatively small. Yes - I think that's definitely an issue. There are a reasonable number of counties (Gloucester among them) that don't really carry a frontline spinner these days. It has always been a an issue for England, especially when playing tests away from home where they're a lot more important to our chances of winning tests like this. But the sudden retirement of Swann has highlighted in a very stark manner. Hats off to the West Indies. That was a really excellent partnership under pressure between Blackwood and Bravo to see it home. A low scoring match like that was always likely to be settled by the one batsman who adapted to the conditions and situation the best; I think it's fair today that it was Darren Bravo. Rethink needed by England before they play a post World Cup New Zealand side who will be pretty confident of turning us over I'd have thought. |
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Post by lostinspace on May 4, 2015 20:29:09 GMT
Trott retires from the test arena.......that will save a few headaches and embarassment for a few
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on May 5, 2015 14:00:44 GMT
Trott retires from the test arena.......that will save a few headaches and embarassment for a few Yes, I think he has fallen on his sword primarily to save face for other people to be honest but I think he's entitled to feel a bit pissed off. England still have an issue with the opening partnership. |
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bluetornados
Predictions League
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Post by bluetornados on May 10, 2015 12:24:21 GMT
Trott retires from the test arena.......that will save a few headaches and embarassment for a few Yes, it's the best all round really...served England well, i wish him all the best in the future. Trott's test record is: Debut aug 2009 - may 2015, pld 52, runs 3,835, 100's 9, 50's 19, top score 226, batting avge 44.08. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on May 11, 2015 12:15:21 GMT
Peter Moore gone - rumoured to be replaced by Jason Gillespie. Sacking the coach on the eve of the Ashes sort of worked for the Aussies I suppose....
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Post by lostinspace on May 11, 2015 19:36:13 GMT
Now with Strauss in the top end of the mix certainly gives a certain KP a definate no chance at all of getting back into the England setup....
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