|
|
Post by rideintothesun on Nov 5, 2023 21:26:06 GMT
Still a good balanced debate. To simplify things. Israel has to wipe out Hamas. To do this there will be civilian casualties. Once the Gazza strip is rubble, and Hamas are no more, there will be a chance to negotiate peace. Because previously negotiations were impossible with Hamas, because their stated aim was to kill every Jew. An international/UN solution, and perhaps an independent Palestinian state could be the eventual outcome of all this. I try and stay positive. It is conceivable, but unlikely and subject to a whole range of contingencies. First, Israel have to destroy Hamas. Netanyahu has made it clear that a ceasefire will only start once the hostages are freed. I think he knows full well that Hamas will only release the hostages as a last resort, which will buy him time and protect him against international pressure for a ceasefire. The PA needs to be convinced to take on the role of being a security enforcer after being evicted in 2007. It will only be able to do this with substantial international and Israeli support. The Strip was however already a horrific mess after successive wars and just a few years ago, the UN even questioned if it would be able to support human life for much longer. Large-scale population movement into Egypt is therefore key not just as a humanitarian response to the conflict but also of enabling the PA to try to achieve some sort of governance. Netanyahu will have to stand down, just as key Israeli political and security figures were forced to stand down after the Yom Kippur War in 1973. This then creates an opportunity for the Israeli people to elect a less extreme government that will be more receptive to peace talks. However, its worth remembering that even a more 'liberal' government will still be receptive to the influence of the settlers, as was the case with Rabin's government in the 1990s. Israel will then need to address its own internal 'extremists' by making it clear that most of the settlements in the West Bank will need to be demolished. Peace negotiations will then need to begin. Although Israel's position was that the Camp David 2000 negotiations would not bind subsequent governments, it would seem prudent to at least take this as the basis or framework for negotiations between the two sides. Alongside this, Palestinian security institutions will have to be reformed, and the PA leadership will have to work to achieve some sort of domestic unity behind a peace agreement, and therefore work to resolve deeply rooted political divisions. Extremist elements within Palestinian society, such as other Islamist terrorist groups, will need to be forcibly suppressed and wiped out. Palestinians will need to recognise the state of Israel (at the moment the political elite does, but the general population often doesn't), and Israelis will need to recognise that the continuation of the Jewish presence in the West Bank (some settlements will remain) will need to be accompanied by a renunciation of any further claim to 'Judea and Samaria' or the Gaza Strip. The alternative is Israel driving Palestinians into Jordan and Egypt, as a kind of completion of the 1948 Nakba. |
|
oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
|
Post by oldie on Nov 5, 2023 21:50:18 GMT
Do you really believe that cutting off the head of HAMAS will resolve the issues in Palestine? Also what does peace look like? They all pack up and carry on as before? I don't think so. The core, the heart of all this, is that Palestinians and perhaps Arabs and others more generally, have never accepted the creation of millions of refugees to satisfy the desires of Israelis. It looks to me now that Israel is intent on destroying GAZA and creating another huge human crisis. This is the reason Egypt and Jordan have denied entry. To do so would play into Israel's hands. The Israelis will most likely destroy HAMAS, destroying GAZA in the process with all the consequences for Palestinians there. A couple of million of them. But the resentment will be intensified and will flare up in Lebanon where there are over 100,000 armed and trained people backed by a regime in Iran which is hostile to the west and will not listen to cries of restraint (unless we barter sanctions). They (Iran) have their own issues with historical activities of the West in their country. This is a powder Keg. Egypt and Jordan are denying the Palestinians entry because they are seen as a national security threat. As already noted on this thread, the Palestinians have an unfortunate habit of biting the hand that feeds them. King Hussein was one of the most prominent international supporters of the Palestinian cause before the PLO turned on him and tried to overthrow him. The Arab states have repeatedly used the refugee issue in a highly cynical way, conveniently overlooking the fact that these people are refugees because of a war they started. Almost all of the refugees will never return. The resolution of the issue will involve a small number being permitted to return to Israel as part of a symbolic gesture and the rest being resettled in Arab states with international and Israeli compensation. No, the refugee crisis started in 1948. On the rest, it's an almighty leep of faith to believe that all the Palestinians currently residing in GAZA and the West Bank will accept being forced to live in another State. That's how this started. |
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2023 21:52:50 GMT
It's a war in which neither side tells the truth nor abides by international norms and rules of war. I am sickened to see my former comrades supposedly on 'the left' in Britain supporting Hamas despite the massacres, torture, and rape campaign of October 7th. The only hope I can see is for Israelis to overthrow Netanyahu and his partners while Palestinians overthrow Hamas. I'm not sure what's worse than Hamas, but secular democracy is certainly better. I do not think this will happen.
|
|
oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
|
Post by oldie on Nov 5, 2023 22:02:46 GMT
It's a war in which neither side tells the truth nor abides by international norms and rules of war. I am sickened to see my former comrades supposedly on 'the left' in Britain supporting Hamas despite the massacres, torture, and rape campaign of October 7th. The only hope I can see is for Israelis to overthrow Netanyahu and his partners while Palestinians overthrow Hamas. I'm not sure what's worse than Hamas, but secular democracy is certainly better. I do not think this will happen. The problem is Shoveler We cannot take October 7th as the starting point, not if a long lasting solution is to be found. As vile and horrific as that was, so much has happened since 1948, sadly it's another event amongst so many since that year. |
|
|
|
Post by rideintothesun on Nov 5, 2023 22:06:11 GMT
Egypt and Jordan are denying the Palestinians entry because they are seen as a national security threat. As already noted on this thread, the Palestinians have an unfortunate habit of biting the hand that feeds them. King Hussein was one of the most prominent international supporters of the Palestinian cause before the PLO turned on him and tried to overthrow him. The Arab states have repeatedly used the refugee issue in a highly cynical way, conveniently overlooking the fact that these people are refugees because of a war they started. Almost all of the refugees will never return. The resolution of the issue will involve a small number being permitted to return to Israel as part of a symbolic gesture and the rest being resettled in Arab states with international and Israeli compensation. No, the refugee crisis started in 1948. On the rest, it's an almighty leep of faith to believe that all the Palestinians currently residing in GAZA and the West Bank will accept being forced to live in another State. That's how this started. The refugee crisis started in 1948 when the Arab states rejected partition and attacked Israel. The refugees both fled and were driven out. I was referring to Palestinian refugees already resident in other Arab states like Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. These refugees will never return to Israel. |
|
|
|
Post by rideintothesun on Nov 5, 2023 22:09:14 GMT
It's a war in which neither side tells the truth nor abides by international norms and rules of war. I am sickened to see my former comrades supposedly on 'the left' in Britain supporting Hamas despite the massacres, torture, and rape campaign of October 7th. The only hope I can see is for Israelis to overthrow Netanyahu and his partners while Palestinians overthrow Hamas. I'm not sure what's worse than Hamas, but secular democracy is certainly better. I do not think this will happen. The problem is Shoveler We cannot take October 7th as the starting point, not if a long lasting solution is to be found. As vile and horrific as that was, so much has happened since 1948, sadly it's another event amongst so many since that year. The 7/10 attacks actually stand apart from previous attacks, in terms of both their scale and depravity. Even Israeli observers well-accustomed to the consequences of Palestinian terrorism were shocked by the level of violence and cruelty shown in the attacks. This stands apart in precisely the same way as 9/11 did for Americans. |
|
|
|
Post by rideintothesun on Nov 5, 2023 22:22:59 GMT
It's a war in which neither side tells the truth nor abides by international norms and rules of war. I am sickened to see my former comrades supposedly on 'the left' in Britain supporting Hamas despite the massacres, torture, and rape campaign of October 7th. The only hope I can see is for Israelis to overthrow Netanyahu and his partners while Palestinians overthrow Hamas. I'm not sure what's worse than Hamas, but secular democracy is certainly better. I do not think this will happen. The position of the far left is purely opportunistic. They hope to exploit this for their own purposes, little realising that the people they are allying with have an (directly opposed) agenda of their own. The Islamists will eventually turn on them. The so-called 'pro-Palestinian' protests are actually doing the Palestinian cause immense harm. If their intention is to appeal to public opinion, they are doing the exact opposite. If they go ahead with the protests in London on remembrance day and behave as they have down so far, they will alienate public opinion even more. Netanyahu is finished. He will have to step down after Israel's war on the Strip ends. |
|
|
|
Post by russiangas on Nov 6, 2023 1:52:10 GMT
Where have I said I am a supporter of Hamas? If you read back through the posts I said the murders by Hamas were abhorrent. I'm not a supporter of Hamas, I'm a critic of Israel and their policy of killing civilians and children in huge numbers that cannot be justified. I support the PLO but most definitely not Hamas. Before you criticise someone it's probably best to actually look at what that have said first because you obviously haven't actually read my comments or paid any attention to them. Israel, unlike Hamas, does not seek to kill as many civilians as it can. If Israel wanted to do this, the casualty figures would be in the hundreds of thousands. During the siege of the Strip, Abbas actually encouraged Israel to tighten the siege as a way of undermining and weakening Hamas. If you are supporting a ceasefire, you are effectively supporting Hamas, as this will enable it to re-group and start planning future terrorist attacks. It has explicitly said it will do this. Abbas and many Palestinians would actually welcome the destruction of Hamas. Of course, they cannot openly say this at a time when the Strip is being attacked by Israel. Hamas need to be destroyed, the PA needs to be supported to re-establish its control of the Strip, and then meaningful peace negotiations need to be re-started. Had the Palestinians accepted what was offered at Camp David in 2000, we would clearly be in a better position. So you think by saying that I think Israel should stop killing innocent civilians and children I am supporting Hamas, that the most illogical nonsense I have ever heard. So you think that we should all support and encourage the killing of innocent people, that's just crazy and it's seems to me you believe the value of Palestine life is lower than Israeli life. |
|
oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
|
Post by oldie on Nov 6, 2023 7:00:29 GMT
No, the refugee crisis started in 1948. On the rest, it's an almighty leep of faith to believe that all the Palestinians currently residing in GAZA and the West Bank will accept being forced to live in another State. That's how this started. The refugee crisis started in 1948 when the Arab states rejected partition and attacked Israel. The refugees both fled and were driven out. I was referring to Palestinian refugees already resident in other Arab states like Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. These refugees will never return to Israel. Israel did not exist before 1948 so could not be attacked. The Palestinians were defending their existing position against imposed partition. |
|
oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
|
Post by oldie on Nov 6, 2023 7:03:14 GMT
It's a war in which neither side tells the truth nor abides by international norms and rules of war. I am sickened to see my former comrades supposedly on 'the left' in Britain supporting Hamas despite the massacres, torture, and rape campaign of October 7th. The only hope I can see is for Israelis to overthrow Netanyahu and his partners while Palestinians overthrow Hamas. I'm not sure what's worse than Hamas, but secular democracy is certainly better. I do not think this will happen. The position of the far left is purely opportunistic. They hope to exploit this for their own purposes, little realising that the people they are allying with have an (directly opposed) agenda of their own. The Islamists will eventually turn on them. The so-called 'pro-Palestinian' protests are actually doing the Palestinian cause immense harm. If their intention is to appeal to public opinion, they are doing the exact opposite. If they go ahead with the protests in London on remembrance day and behave as they have down so far, they will alienate public opinion even more. Netanyahu is finished. He will have to step down after Israel's war on the Strip ends. This attempt to label anyone, participating in demonstrations or not, are "Far Left" is just media inspired nonsense. |
|
oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
|
Post by oldie on Nov 6, 2023 7:07:05 GMT
The problem is Shoveler We cannot take October 7th as the starting point, not if a long lasting solution is to be found. As vile and horrific as that was, so much has happened since 1948, sadly it's another event amongst so many since that year. The 7/10 attacks actually stand apart from previous attacks, in terms of both their scale and depravity. Even Israeli observers well-accustomed to the consequences of Palestinian terrorism were shocked by the level of violence and cruelty shown in the attacks. This stands apart in precisely the same way as 9/11 did for Americans. Arguably But it is not the starting point. Just as the attacks on New York were not the starting point. Look at what the resulting attacks on Iraq achieved subsequently. Over 100,000 dead and a totally destabilised region. |
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,612 
|
Post by eppinggas on Nov 6, 2023 18:29:46 GMT
Hamas are hiding in Qatar while Gazan Palestinians, loads of whom are not Hamas/Jihadis/antisemites, are killed on their behalf. Hamas has to be removed for peace, but Hamas cannot be removed, as their generals are hiding elsewhere. Netanyahu's war crimes in Gaza justify nothing Hamas did, but Israelis should remove him, as large numbers still intend to. There will be no peace in Israel Palestine while the parties of God wage Holy War, and want this more than peace. Qatar really was a super duper place to hold the World Cup. Shameful. |
|
oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
|
Post by oldie on Nov 6, 2023 19:16:35 GMT
Hamas are hiding in Qatar while Gazan Palestinians, loads of whom are not Hamas/Jihadis/antisemites, are killed on their behalf. Hamas has to be removed for peace, but Hamas cannot be removed, as their generals are hiding elsewhere. Netanyahu's war crimes in Gaza justify nothing Hamas did, but Israelis should remove him, as large numbers still intend to. There will be no peace in Israel Palestine while the parties of God wage Holy War, and want this more than peace. Qatar really was a super duper place to hold the World Cup. Shameful. We have become whores for their money. It is vile, shameful. |
|
trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by trymer on Nov 6, 2023 19:58:45 GMT
I was reading about the girl Shani Louk,she was declared dead last week when fragments of her skull were found at the site of the music festival that was attacked Oct 7th.
There is a video where she is seen before the attack dressed in skimpy clothing and cavorting around,I can imagine some pious Mujahideen seeing her,he would have considered her an abomination.
This is the difference between 'Western' people's attitudes/actions compared to radical Islamists,a 'Western' person might look at her and think 'she looks a right skank' but they wouldnt feel that was a reason to shoot her in the head.
Taking her corpse and displaying it the streets of the city like a hunting trophy and letting people spit and beat it is an attempt to cause feelings of fear and vulnerability in the Israeli people particularly the ones living near the Gaza border.
|
|
oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
|
Post by oldie on Nov 6, 2023 20:03:20 GMT
I was reading about the girl Shani Louk,she was declared dead last week when fragments of her skull were found at the site of the music festival that was attacked Oct 7th. There is a video where she is seen before the attack dressed in skimpy clothing and cavorting around,I can imagine some pious Mujahideen seeing her,he would have considered her an abomination. This is the difference between 'Western' people's attitudes/actions compared to radical Islamists,a 'Western' person might look at her and think 'she looks a right skank' but they wouldnt feel that was a reason to shoot her in the head. Taking her corpse and displaying it the streets of the city like a hunting trophy and letting people spit and beat it is an attempt to cause feelings of fear and vulnerability in the Israeli people particularly the ones living near the Gaza border. What's your point? Apart from making it up. |
|
trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,556
|
Post by trymer on Nov 6, 2023 20:03:29 GMT
Nobbygas,you mentioned Trophy and the later Merkava's have it fitted,the explosion when it goes off seems severe,does it stop supporting infantry from being near to the tanks ?
The reason I ask is that the Israelis seem to be sending armour into urban areas without infantry support,Hamas fighters are getting close and firing 2 RPG's in successsion,the first one to set the Trophy off and the second one then hits the unprotected tank...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2023 21:57:32 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Nobbygas on Nov 6, 2023 22:51:51 GMT
I was reading about the girl Shani Louk,she was declared dead last week when fragments of her skull were found at the site of the music festival that was attacked Oct 7th. There is a video where she is seen before the attack dressed in skimpy clothing and cavorting around,I can imagine some pious Mujahideen seeing her,he would have considered her an abomination. This is the difference between 'Western' people's attitudes/actions compared to radical Islamists,a 'Western' person might look at her and think 'she looks a right skank' but they wouldnt feel that was a reason to shoot her in the head. Taking her corpse and displaying it the streets of the city like a hunting trophy and letting people spit and beat it is an attempt to cause feelings of fear and vulnerability in the Israeli people particularly the ones living near the Gaza border. What's your point? Apart from making it up. He is not making anything up. I have seen the video and she was dead in the back of that pick-up truck. There is something that nobody in the MSM have noted. She was dead, of that there was no doubt. She had been stripped down to her bra and pants and was wearing a blindfold. You do not put a blindfold on someone who is already dead. This indicates she was alive when captured, and subsequently killed. So, if she was alive when captured, then just what the hell did they do to her? The angle of her broken leg tells you that it was deeply disturbing. So no Oldie, nobody is making anything up. Good luck to Israel as they attempt to eradicate this cancer on humanity. |
|
|
|
Post by Nobbygas on Nov 6, 2023 22:56:39 GMT
Nobbygas,you mentioned Trophy and the later Merkava's have it fitted,the explosion when it goes off seems severe,does it stop supporting infantry from being near to the tanks ? The reason I ask is that the Israelis seem to be sending armour into urban areas without infantry support,Hamas fighters are getting close and firing 2 RPG's in successsion,the first one to set the Trophy off and the second one then hits the unprotected tank... An RPG wouldn't provide any threat to a Merkava. It won't penetrate the armour. |
|
oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,556
|
Post by oldie on Nov 7, 2023 8:34:08 GMT
What's your point? Apart from making it up. He is not making anything up. I have seen the video and she was dead in the back of that pick-up truck. There is something that nobody in the MSM have noted. She was dead, of that there was no doubt. She had been stripped down to her bra and pants and was wearing a blindfold. You do not put a blindfold on someone who is already dead. This indicates she was alive when captured, and subsequently killed. So, if she was alive when captured, then just what the hell did they do to her? The angle of her broken leg tells you that it was deeply disturbing. So no Oldie, nobody is making anything up. Good luck to Israel as they attempt to eradicate this cancer on humanity. Not the fact this poor lady was murdered, the added extras. Mujahedeen etc, western values. I still don't see the point, but hey ho. |
|
