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Post by russiangas on Nov 9, 2023 15:23:27 GMT
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Post by russiangas on Nov 9, 2023 15:30:23 GMT
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Post by Nobbygas on Nov 9, 2023 17:01:19 GMT
"If all they are doing is rescuing hostages in a non combatant role " - You are joking, right? You obviously have no idea whatsoever regarding hostage rescue missions. "We know the kind of things the SAS gets up to e.g. shooting people after they have been detained etc. There's plenty of evidence of that." - Can you please provide any evidence to your outrageous claims? You need to give your head a wibble, Just to start with, I can provide loads loads more if you like. So you're some kind of expert in hostage rescue missions are you then??? What are your credentials please? If you're such an expert yourself? Just a right wing bully more like who thinks he knows more than he does. I was a Corporal in the Royal Marines. |
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Post by Nobbygas on Nov 9, 2023 17:09:12 GMT
So, this 'investigation' is being prosecuted by the lawyers "leigh Day". This company has been totally discredited in the past. Phil Shiner was the chief culprit then. Oh, and if the hostage rescue mission was abroad it would be MI6, not MI5. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,556 
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Post by trymer on Nov 9, 2023 17:26:37 GMT
Nobody is trying to 'cover up' anything. There are British people among those kidnapped. It is only right and proper that British Forces will be looking to rescue them. It doesn't help things when the media start speculating and reporting on these missions. People can die, and what for, a headline in a rag ? so issuing a D notice to try to stop publishing something is not covering up something? It's blatantly trying to stop people from finding out that the SAS are involved. If all they are doing is rescuing hostages in a non combatant role then why would they need to stop it getting out into the news??? Very fishy if you ask me. We know the kind of things the SAS gets up to e.g. shooting people after they have been detained etc. There's plenty of evidence of that. Killing unarmed Arabs is a speciality of theirs so I guess they'll be right at home. Fairly obvious that secrecy is the best option if they (SAS,other armed forces) are gathering information to find out where the terrorists have the hostages and then rescuing them. As for killing unarmed arabs the hostage takers that i have seen pictures of were all well armed...and dangerous,but they mostly wore civilian clothing. |
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Post by russiangas on Nov 9, 2023 18:01:03 GMT
so issuing a D notice to try to stop publishing something is not covering up something? It's blatantly trying to stop people from finding out that the SAS are involved. If all they are doing is rescuing hostages in a non combatant role then why would they need to stop it getting out into the news??? Very fishy if you ask me. We know the kind of things the SAS gets up to e.g. shooting people after they have been detained etc. There's plenty of evidence of that. Killing unarmed Arabs is a speciality of theirs so I guess they'll be right at home. Fairly obvious that secrecy is the best option if they (SAS,other armed forces) are gathering information to find out where the terrorists have the hostages and then rescuing them. As for killing unarmed arabs the hostage takers that i have seen pictures of were all well armed...and dangerous,but they mostly wore civilian clothing. Rubbish it's because they don't want to be seen to be involved in any way because they're worried about negative publicity. It's not like details of the actual operation is going to be revealed in the media. There's plenty of evidence that British forces have committed war crimes at numerous stages in the past as I have demonstrated. I'm not talking about hostage takers I'm talking about. Hamas are an irregular, guerilla army so yes won't be dressed in army uniform, but that's not a reason to kill other civilians. I think to be honest if British citizens chose to travel to a country that they know to be volatile and there is a risk of being taken hostage there, then they do so at their own risk. Why should they rest of the British taxpayers have to foot the bill? How many billions were spent on the operations and lives lost both British and foreign in Iraq and Afghanistan? Afghanistan now back in the hands of the Taliban, so now better than in the first place. Anyone who believes UK and US foreign policy is for the benefit of ordinary citizens is completely deluded. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,557
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Post by oldie on Nov 9, 2023 18:11:24 GMT
Russian Please stop with the personal attacks. I may disagree with Nobby on a variety of topics but we shouldn't be disparaging service like that. |
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Post by russiangas on Nov 9, 2023 18:19:52 GMT
Russian Please stop with the personal attacks. I may disagree with Nobby on a variety of topics but we shouldn't be disparaging service like that. he was the first to attack me, patronising me saying I have no clue etc. I don't like bullies and he clearly likes to try to bully. That's fine but has to apply to him also. |
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Post by rideintothesun on Nov 9, 2023 18:19:53 GMT
Fairly obvious that secrecy is the best option if they (SAS,other armed forces) are gathering information to find out where the terrorists have the hostages and then rescuing them. As for killing unarmed arabs the hostage takers that i have seen pictures of were all well armed...and dangerous,but they mostly wore civilian clothing. Rubbish it's because they don't want to be seen to be involved in any way because they're worried about negative publicity. It's not like details of the actual operation is going to be revealed in the media. There's plenty of evidence that British forces have committed war crimes at numerous stages in the past as I have demonstrated. I'm not talking about hostage takers I'm talking about. Hamas are an irregular, guerilla army so yes won't be dressed in army uniform, but that's not a reason to kill other civilians. I think to be honest if British citizens chose to travel to a country that they know to be volatile and there is a risk of being taken hostage there, then they do so at their own risk. Why should they rest of the British taxpayers have to foot the bill? How many billions were spent on the operations and lives lost both British and foreign in Iraq and Afghanistan? Afghanistan now back in the hands of the Taliban, so now better than in the first place. Anyone who believes UK and US foreign policy is for the benefit of ordinary citizens is completely deluded. I would actually hope that the UK special forces on the ground and are preparing to release UK nationals and other hostages. In terms of being safe from terrorist attack, Israel was historically safer than the UK, which was home to various extremist Islamist groups until the 9/11 attacks forced the government to crack down on them. It was even known as 'Londonstan' because of the ease with which extremists were able to conduct their operations in the country. For example, we gave asylum to a former Hamas leader from the West Bank who has allegedly been involved in the planning of the 'hate marches' recently held in London and other cities. Even after the 7/10 attacks, some UK Jews have said they feel safer in Israel than in London. I can fully understand this viewpoint. Are you actually Russian? If you are, then I am virtually obliged to point out you are on pretty thin ice when talking about war crimes, whether British or Israeli. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,556
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Post by trymer on Nov 9, 2023 18:29:11 GMT
Fairly obvious that secrecy is the best option if they (SAS,other armed forces) are gathering information to find out where the terrorists have the hostages and then rescuing them. As for killing unarmed arabs the hostage takers that i have seen pictures of were all well armed...and dangerous,but they mostly wore civilian clothing. Rubbish it's because they don't want to be seen to be involved in any way because they're worried about negative publicity. It's not like details of the actual operation is going to be revealed in the media. There's plenty of evidence that British forces have committed war crimes at numerous stages in the past as I have demonstrated. I'm not talking about hostage takers I'm talking about. Hamas are an irregular, guerilla army so yes won't be dressed in army uniform, but that's not a reason to kill other civilians. I think to be honest if British citizens chose to travel to a country that they know to be volatile and there is a risk of being taken hostage there, then they do so at their own risk. Why should they rest of the British taxpayers have to foot the bill? How many billions were spent on the operations and lives lost both British and foreign in Iraq and Afghanistan? Afghanistan now back in the hands of the Taliban, so now better than in the first place. Anyone who believes UK and US foreign policy is for the benefit of ordinary citizens is completely deluded. They havent done anything yet (as far as we know) so how could there be negative publicity ? Once the press start talking about covert operations the terrorists could start moving the hostages locations making rescues more difficult/dangerous. The problem fighting any guerrilas is that once they hide their weapons they become 'unarmed civilians'. The hostages were kidnapped in Israel and taken to Gaza,the foreign office hadnt warned travellers to avoid Israel and some of the hostages have dual nationality. The Afghanistan/Iraq/Taliban/US,UK foreign policies arent part of this Palestine discussion. |
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Post by russiangas on Nov 9, 2023 18:30:31 GMT
Rubbish it's because they don't want to be seen to be involved in any way because they're worried about negative publicity. It's not like details of the actual operation is going to be revealed in the media. There's plenty of evidence that British forces have committed war crimes at numerous stages in the past as I have demonstrated. I'm not talking about hostage takers I'm talking about. Hamas are an irregular, guerilla army so yes won't be dressed in army uniform, but that's not a reason to kill other civilians. I think to be honest if British citizens chose to travel to a country that they know to be volatile and there is a risk of being taken hostage there, then they do so at their own risk. Why should they rest of the British taxpayers have to foot the bill? How many billions were spent on the operations and lives lost both British and foreign in Iraq and Afghanistan? Afghanistan now back in the hands of the Taliban, so now better than in the first place. Anyone who believes UK and US foreign policy is for the benefit of ordinary citizens is completely deluded. I would actually hope that the UK special forces on the ground and are preparing to release UK nationals and other hostages. In terms of being safe from terrorist attack, Israel was historically safer than the UK, which was home to various extremist Islamist groups until the 9/11 attacks forced the government to crack down on them. It was even known as 'Londonstan' because of the ease with which extremists were able to conduct their operations in the country. For example, we gave asylum to a former Hamas leader from the West Bank who has allegedly been involved in the planning of the 'hate marches' recently held in London and other cities. Even after the 7/10 attacks, some UK Jews have said they feel safer in Israel than in London. I can fully understand this viewpoint. Are you actually Russian? If you are, then I am virtually obliged to point out you are on pretty thin ice when talking about war crimes, whether British or Israeli. No I'm not Russian I just used Russiangas as I couldn't think of anything else to use as a name on here and thought Russia is a massive exporter of gas, so hence Russiangas. I have absolutely no connection whatsoever to Russia just couldn't think of any other username at the time. I'm also not making any criticism of Jews at all. The state of Israel yes, I am very critical of, illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank, yes, Israel killing a disproportionate number of Palestinian civilians and many children, yes. But Jews no, I think anyone should be free to practice their religion providing they abide with the laws of the land. Yes and to be fair the marines generally haven't been involved in any of these controversies. I don't by any means believe all British Soldiers are bad and have committed crimes, the majority are acting with professionalism and restraint. I'm just saying there are examples where things have fallen well below what should be expected from a country that claims to be one of the best examples of democracy and justice in the world. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,556
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Post by trymer on Nov 9, 2023 18:57:00 GMT
Regarding shooting of civilians, just Google Francs-tireurs and how they should be treated according to article 4 of the 3rd Geneva convention (1949).
They (Francs-tireurs = guerrilas,partisans) are entitled to be treated as POWs as long as they meet certain criteria, I wont copy it all but one part I think is relevant ,they must 'conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war',from their own video evidence Hamas did not obey this on the October 7th raid.
They would also not meet a few other criteria, so if they are caught with weapons or are seen to have used a weapon and then ditched it they are not entitled to be taken POW,if they are then shot they maybe seen as an unarmed civilian by some but it wouldnt be an illegal act.
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Post by russiangas on Nov 9, 2023 19:03:13 GMT
Regarding shooting of civilians, just Google Francs-tireurs and how they should be treated according to article 4 of the 3rd Geneva convention (1949). They (Francs-tireurs = guerrilas,partisans) are entitled to be treated as POWs as long as they meet certain criteria, I wont copy it all but one part I think is relevant ,they must 'conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war',from their own video evidence Hamas did not obey this on the October 7th raid. They would also not meet a few other criteria, so if they are caught with weapons or are seen to have used a weapon and then ditched it they are not entitled to be taken POW,if they are then shot they maybe seen as an unarmed civilian by some but it wouldnt be an illegal act. It's a fact though that many many civilians and children have been killed by Israel. There's no way anyone can claim that all of those killed have been active members of Hamas, that's not true, the UN have said this. Israel are killing many thousands of civilians in Gaza that's a fact. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,557
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Post by oldie on Nov 9, 2023 19:22:09 GMT
Regarding shooting of civilians, just Google Francs-tireurs and how they should be treated according to article 4 of the 3rd Geneva convention (1949). They (Francs-tireurs = guerrilas,partisans) are entitled to be treated as POWs as long as they meet certain criteria, I wont copy it all but one part I think is relevant ,they must 'conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war',from their own video evidence Hamas did not obey this on the October 7th raid. They would also not meet a few other criteria, so if they are caught with weapons or are seen to have used a weapon and then ditched it they are not entitled to be taken POW,if they are then shot they maybe seen as an unarmed civilian by some but it wouldnt be an illegal act. It's a fact though that many many civilians and children have been killed by Israel. There's no way anyone can claim that all of those killed have been active members of Hamas, that's not true, the UN have said this. Israel are killing many thousands of civilians in Gaza that's a fact. That is a sad fact. To deny it adds nothing to a possible solution. |
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trymer
Joined: November 2018
Posts: 2,556
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Post by trymer on Nov 9, 2023 19:37:42 GMT
Regarding shooting of civilians, just Google Francs-tireurs and how they should be treated according to article 4 of the 3rd Geneva convention (1949). They (Francs-tireurs = guerrilas,partisans) are entitled to be treated as POWs as long as they meet certain criteria, I wont copy it all but one part I think is relevant ,they must 'conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war',from their own video evidence Hamas did not obey this on the October 7th raid. They would also not meet a few other criteria, so if they are caught with weapons or are seen to have used a weapon and then ditched it they are not entitled to be taken POW,if they are then shot they maybe seen as an unarmed civilian by some but it wouldnt be an illegal act. It's a fact though that many many civilians and children have been killed by Israel. There's no way anyone can claim that all of those killed have been active members of Hamas, that's not true, the UN have said this. Israel are killing many thousands of civilians in Gaza that's a fact. My post was in response to your comments about British armed forces shooting unarmed civilians. The thousands of civilians including children killed by Israeli bombing and shelling,I do feel sympathy for them especially children,babies too,I dont agree with indiscriminate bombings whether by air forces or terrorist actions. In this case I believe that Hamas knew exactly what the Israeli reaction to the October 7th raid would be and that they are prepared to see thousands of their own people killed to further their own cause, they now have a lot of the World in favour of the Palestinians and against Israel |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,557
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Post by oldie on Nov 9, 2023 20:56:26 GMT
It's a fact though that many many civilians and children have been killed by Israel. There's no way anyone can claim that all of those killed have been active members of Hamas, that's not true, the UN have said this. Israel are killing many thousands of civilians in Gaza that's a fact. My post was in response to your comments about British armed forces shooting unarmed civilians. The thousands of civilians including children killed by Israeli bombing and shelling,I do feel sympathy for them especially children,babies too,I dont agree with indiscriminate bombings whether by air forces or terrorist actions. In this case I believe that Hamas knew exactly what the Israeli reaction to the October 7th raid would be and that they are prepared to see thousands of their own people killed to further their own cause, they now have a lot of the World in favour of the Palestinians and against Israel You might believe it, but do you have any evidence at all to back that opinion? |
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2023 21:25:25 GMT
Apart from everything Hamas ever say, ever do, still say, and still do? Hamas are fighting a holy war to destroy the Jews, at any expense in Palestinian lives, as this is glorious martyrdom, and worth it to kill every Jew from the river to the sea. I don't need any more evidence, because this is what Hamas proclaim themselves.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,612
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Post by eppinggas on Nov 10, 2023 17:06:56 GMT
It's a fact though that many many civilians and children have been killed by Israel. There's no way anyone can claim that all of those killed have been active members of Hamas, that's not true, the UN have said this. Israel are killing many thousands of civilians in Gaza that's a fact. That is a sad fact. To deny it adds nothing to a possible solution. No-one is disputing the fact that Palestinian civilians are dying. They are dying because Israel can't wage a war to destroy Hamas without innocent people dying. How many civilians have been killed? Well we don't know because Hamas run the health service in the Gaza strip, and the numbers come from them. But, yes, it's thousands. And it is as tragic as it is utterly unavoidable, because Hamas must be wiped off of the face of the earth. Is the Israeli response so far disproportionate? From my personal point of view, no. Others may disagree, that's fine. But Hamas must be wiped out. There is no other way. Israel has no choice. And to show balance, I am disgusted with the Israeli land grabs in the West Bank. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,557
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Post by oldie on Nov 10, 2023 17:50:48 GMT
That is a sad fact. To deny it adds nothing to a possible solution. No-one is disputing the fact that Palestinian civilians are dying. They are dying because Israel can't wage a war to destroy Hamas without innocent people dying. How many civilians have been killed? Well we don't know because Hamas run the health service in the Gaza strip, and the numbers come from them. But, yes, it's thousands. And it is as tragic as it is utterly unavoidable, because Hamas must be wiped off of the face of the earth. Is the Israeli response so far disproportionate? From my personal point of view, no. Others may disagree, that's fine. But Hamas must be wiped out. There is no other way. Israel has no choice. And to show balance, I am disgusted with the Israeli land grabs in the West Bank. |
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oldie
Joined: September 2021
Posts: 7,557
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Post by oldie on Nov 10, 2023 17:55:39 GMT
"And to show balance, I am disgusted with the Israeli land grabs in the West Bank."
But Epping
It is exactly that kind of behaviour which drives Palestinians into the arms of extremists.
We keep saying it, resolve the behaviour of Zionist extremists and the solution follows.
Sadly that's not going to happen because these extremists are now in a coalition government in Israel.
Israel is in the same grip of extremism as the Palestinians are.
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