Cheshiregas
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,178
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 22, 2021 15:40:05 GMT
KP I fully appreciate the current situation. Has Wael told you personally he won't sell? I've known companies in the past who said in no way they would sell and subsequently sold up when the right offer came along. So for those currently engaged in attacking the club, its employees and owner (and on occasions the latter quite vitriolically), for whatever purpose, l say get your act together, put your hands in your pocket and come up with the readies. Stop stirring the pot, grow up and do your bit to put the Gas back where you feel it belongs. I am happy to act as an intermediary, I'll even cut my day rate to just cover costs, so that they can get the maximum amount available. Happy to sign a confi and try to bring peace provided they act in good faith. I have done it before and am known to act without favour. So come on let's see the readies. Patronising or what. I am not wealthy and I think it’s pretty well known Wael refused to give up his shares, or part, during the FM discussions. Shocked by the nature of your post. KP I wasn't attacking you personally so my apologies if it appears that way. I am on about those who constantly snipe and undermine without any justification. I am saying they should put up or shut up. If they have something constructive to add then great, let's hear it. Running off to the FA, constantly making personal attacks on the owner etc does nothing to help our club. But if they feel they can take over the club and give the fans what they want then great I'll give them my wholehearted support and help. I'll not hold my breath.
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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 22, 2021 15:44:31 GMT
The most important issue is Rovers future and most fans seem content to leave it completely up to Wael which, IMO, isn’t helping him because if Gasheads remain passive he is very likely to carry on with the attitude of “something is bound to turn up”. As things come to a head we should try to help Wael appreciate that he needs to show good judgement in determining Rovers future. He must be working and thinking now about what will happen when he is no longer able to finance the club because no one, IMO, is going to “ make him an offer and build us a stadium” . The exit route is going to be very costly and bring a lot of heartache but he needs to be planning for that now. As a former banker you know better than anyone how messy these things can become if no forethought is given to the process which will get everyone out with as little collateral damage as possible. Wael must feel as though he is carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders and be desperate not to let Gasheads down so anything we can do to persuade him to stop making rash decisions and instead take a calm measured approach will be of help to him and to Rovers.
Swiss - some observations - We all have concerns about many aspects of the club - There has been bad behaviour on both sides. I'm not sure I much agree with that last bit. Wael has pretty much behaved as a committed owner should IMO
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Post by swissgas on Aug 22, 2021 15:45:17 GMT
You forget or don’t understand that Wael is not selling nor will he give up any of his shares. He has already shown this with the FM fiasco, which his brother wanted to sell up KP I fully appreciate the current situation. Has Wael told you personally he won't sell? I've known companies in the past who said in no way they would sell and subsequently sold up when the right offer came along. So for those currently engaged in attacking the club, its employees and owner (and on occasions the latter quite vitriolically), for whatever purpose, l say get your act together, put your hands in your pocket and come up with the readies. Stop stirring the pot, grow up and do your bit to put the Gas back where you feel it belongs. I am happy to act as an intermediary, I'll even cut my day rate to just cover costs, so that they can get the maximum amount available. Happy to sign a confi and try to bring peace provided they act in good faith. I have done it before and am known to act without favour. So come on let's see the readies. What sort of opening bid are you expecting Chesh ? Wigan, with their modern stadium and training ground, were recently sold by Administrators for about £ 4 million and were able to make a completely fresh start. Swindon were sold for £200K with the new people taking on old debts of about a million owed to previous owners, annual trading losses of about £1.2 million and of course they lease their old but adequate stadium. With annual trading losses of £3 million, a debt to Dwane Sports of at least £10 million and a stadium in urgent need refurbishment or replacement I think selling Rovers at any price would be extremely difficult. And this is the problem which, in their clumsy way, I think the SC and PC are trying to highlight. We had Flook follow Holmes and Dunford follow Flook and Higgs follow Dunford and Al-Qadi follow Higgs because Rovers problems were always solvable. If you look at the problems we have now and consider how the market for football clubs works it is difficult to see how the problem can be solved without a formal process and even then the charge over the Mem could scupper it.
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harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5,436
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Post by harrybuckle on Aug 22, 2021 16:01:04 GMT
Funny how the open letter failed to even mention the relegation and poor start to the season knocked out the league cup at home by a club considered by many as a limited club in Gloucestershire.
No mention of adminstrative problems with their new ticket partners and unconvincing way fans have been treated by Ticketmaster awaiting tickets by post.
In my view that has to be more of a priority that asking BRSC to give £50k and to take away their 50-50 draw and stop their members volunteers selling programmes which ultimately was for the benefit of the FC. Lots of longstanding fans feel a disconnect from current team, club and manager. Wael should address that concern rather than infer the SC have attacked him when asking for shares paid for and not forthcoming from their substantial investment. That was why the EFL were consulted to put pressure on club to provide what their members had purchased.
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Post by swissgas on Aug 22, 2021 16:01:11 GMT
The most important issue is Rovers future and most fans seem content to leave it completely up to Wael which, IMO, isn’t helping him because if Gasheads remain passive he is very likely to carry on with the attitude of “something is bound to turn up”. As things come to a head we should try to help Wael appreciate that he needs to show good judgement in determining Rovers future. He must be working and thinking now about what will happen when he is no longer able to finance the club because no one, IMO, is going to “ make him an offer and build us a stadium” . The exit route is going to be very costly and bring a lot of heartache but he needs to be planning for that now. As a former banker you know better than anyone how messy these things can become if no forethought is given to the process which will get everyone out with as little collateral damage as possible. Wael must feel as though he is carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders and be desperate not to let Gasheads down so anything we can do to persuade him to stop making rash decisions and instead take a calm measured approach will be of help to him and to Rovers.
Swiss - some observations - We all have concerns about many aspects of the club - There has been bad behaviour on both sides. I think though that Wael is following the maxim 'Revenge is a Dish Best Served Cold'. This is impacting on the BRSC due to the actions of the men at the top. BRSC members have had no chance to influence or change the attitude of those people as the constitution appears to be being ignored. - If no one is going to step forward or put their hands in their pockets then they should stop acting like children and grow up. Constructive criticism like yours and a couple of others would be helpful to any owner but the smokescreen of bitterness and attacks hides anything constructive that comes from fans. - We don't know what short, medium or long term plans Wael has. He may have a long term out we don't know. Yes, a good business should have an idea of its end game and a strategy on how to get there. I have met many who haven't and needed to be persuaded to put something in place. - I would be interested in how you think we could achieve the last point of reaching out to and discussing/persuading Wael with constructive thoughts. Regards I think Wael is in need of a Colin Sexstone but fear he may choose to get a Harry Redknapp. Wael reads all social media and so long as Gasheads support him unconditionally in whatever he does I think he will be more inclined to talk to a “Harry” which is what he likes and wants to do. Whereas it would be better for Rovers if he could be persuaded to talk to a “Colin” who will tell him a few home truths which he won’t like but that is what, IMO, he needs.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,309
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Post by kingswood Polak on Aug 22, 2021 16:12:08 GMT
Patronising or what. I am not wealthy and I think it’s pretty well known Wael refused to give up his shares, or part, during the FM discussions. Shocked by the nature of your post. KP I wasn't attacking you personally so my apologies if it appears that way. I am on about those who constantly snipe and undermine without any justification. I am saying they should put up or shut up. If they have something constructive to add then great, let's hear it. Running off to the FA, constantly making personal attacks on the owner etc does nothing to help our club. But if they feel they can take over the club and give the fans what they want then great I'll give them my wholehearted support and help. I'll not hold my breath. It sounded that way so that is why I was shocked as I have said I think the whole situation very sad and bad for the club
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Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920
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Post by Peter Parker on Aug 22, 2021 16:12:38 GMT
Funny how the open letter failed to even mention the relegation and poor start to the season knocked out the league cup at home by a club considered by many as a limited club in Gloucestershire. No mention of adminstrative problems with their new ticket partners and unconvincing way fans have been treated by Ticketmaster awaiting tickets by post. In my view that has to be more of a priority that asking BRSC to give £50k and to take away their 50-50 draw and stop their members volunteers selling programmes which ultimately was for the benefit of the FC. Lots of longstanding fans feel a disconnect from current team, club and manager. Wael should address that concern rather than infer the SC have attacked him when asking for shares paid for and not forthcoming from their substantial investment. That was why the EFL were consulted to put pressure on club to provide what their members had purchased. Wael doesn't need to infer anything about them attacking him. It's in black and white from The SC, pretty much from day one Did the SC canvas their members about a course of action, before reporting/consulting the EFL about Wael? Maybe it isn't happening the way it should, but the FC taking over stuff like the 50/50 or selling programmes from The SC, shouldn't actually be a bad thing
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,309
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Post by kingswood Polak on Aug 22, 2021 16:21:09 GMT
It’s all on here but, unlike others, I can’t be ar5ed to go through posts. It’s on the SC thread too as well as others. KP I think Droitwich is asking for official confirmation which it never was but I agree with your summary of where we were when Hani was trying to offload the club even sacking Hamer along the way for not divulging that there was another interested party. We also know that Wael did not want to give up his shareholding as the FM investors wanted him too but it's all history now as Wael won the day by buying the rest of his family out. This is where the bitterness from the SC and PC stems from IMO and I'm not holding my breath for the PC members on here to confirm this seeing as their current and past chairman was heavily involved at the time. As if I am privy to official content 😂. My comments were based in the whole debacle and how it played out plus other bits I found out. I couldn’t officially confirm anything but I think I’d be right in saying Wael loves owning a club and is not planning to give up, to anyone.
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Post by sethstarkadder on Aug 22, 2021 16:25:20 GMT
I ought to keep quiet on this. I haven’t been following the he said she said, and care even less. From skim reading the SC’s long-winded whinge my main thought is ‘don’t then - sorted’. I’m also only back here to vent and share re the current blight on the club and get comfort that I’m not the only one. But this ‘revenge is a dish best served cold’ thing seems unfair and stooping to the SC/PC levels,of pettiness.
I’ve long thought that the SC is a clique with a football team attached, not a vehicle for supporters of that football club. They’re now like a bald man demanding his comb back - and it wasn’t even his comb in the first place.
WAQ is, I think, well intentioned and was needed and welcomed (by most) at the time. Decisions over the last year or so (the role of Widdrington, the managerial decision in Feb) leave me worried about his judgement.
Nevertheless, if I were him then, and now, I’d have thought I’d want to work with the supporters’ groups. When they proved hostile, I’d have sought to address that, then both sides would say no more about it and move on with a revised view of our relationship. If they then took that latter conciliatory bit as a green light for further undermining, pops and sniping, I’d write them off (particularly now I’ve realised they’re wholly unrepresentative), turn their power supply off, kick their arse, and cast them adrift in an open boat. Nothing to do with ‘revenge’. Good luck to him on that score. God knows what they think they’re supporting. Good riddance. And if I were minded to volunteer, I’d happily cut out having to align myself with a rogue middle man in order to do so.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 16:32:16 GMT
I ought to keep quiet on this. I haven’t been following the he said she said, and care even less. From skim reading the SC’s long-winded whinge my main thought is ‘don’t then - sorted’. I’m also only back here to vent and share re the current blight on the club and get comfort that I’m not the only one. But this ‘revenge is a dish best served cold’ thing seems unfair and stooping to the SC/PC levels,of pettiness. I’ve long thought that the SC is a clique with a football team attached, not a vehicle for supporters of that football club. They’re now like a bald man demanding his comb back - and it wasn’t even his comb in the first place. WAQ is, I think, well intentioned and was needed and welcomed (by most) at the time. Decisions over the last year or so (the role of Widdrington, the managerial decision in Feb) leave me worried about his judgement. Nevertheless, if I were him then, and now, I’d have thought I’d want to work with the supporters’ groups. When they proved hostile, I’d have sought to address that, then both sides would say no more about it and move on with a revised view of our relationship. If they then took that latter conciliatory bit as a green light for further undermining, pops and sniping, I’d write them off (particularly now I’ve realised they’re wholly unrepresentative), turn their power supply off, kick their arse, and cast them adrift in an open boat. Nothing to do with ‘revenge’. Good luck to him on that score. God knows what they think they’re supporting. Good riddance. And if I were minded to volunteer, I’d happily cut out having to align myself with a rogue middle man in order to do so. I think me and you would get on very well Seth.
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,178
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 22, 2021 16:40:10 GMT
What sort of opening bid are you expecting Chesh ? Wigan, with their modern stadium and training ground, were recently sold by Administrators for about £ 4 million and were able to make a completely fresh start. Swindon were sold for £200K with the new people taking on old debts of about a million owed to previous owners, annual trading losses of about £1.2 million and of course they lease their old but adequate stadium. With annual trading losses of £3 million, a debt to Dwane Sports of at least £10 million and a stadium in urgent need refurbishment or replacement I think selling Rovers at any price would be extremely difficult. And this is the problem which, in their clumsy way, I think the SC and PC are trying to highlight. We had Flook follow Holmes and Dunford follow Flook and Higgs follow Dunford and Al-Qadi follow Higgs because Rovers problems were always solvable. If you look at the problems we have now and consider how the market for football clubs works it is difficult to see how the problem can be solved without a formal process and even then the charge over the Mem could scupper it. As you and I know Swiss a company is worth what anyone is willing (or in some cases daft enough) to pay for it! Obviously many industries carry various multiples but football is a strange animal that causes many businesses to throw caution out the window. And of course, it does depend on whether you are buying out of admin or as a going concern. The big question is, will Wael, like Higgs, want his money back? Wael probably doesn't want to sell as KP suggests but that doesn't mean he isn't worried about the way the business is going or how he can rescue it. Which owner wouldn't? Nor that he wouldn't be open to selling if he could walk away graciously. I would suggest that, without a debt burden, Rovers offer a better longer term prospect with potential support than Wigan and Swindon, IF successful. It depends on whether Wael would need to be persuaded to depart and whether he would require his investment to be repaid. Very few clubs even at the top level are taken over without the departing investor losing money. It's the depth of that loss that will be the debating point. Otherwise its down the admin route and pick up the pieces, which seeing as the debt is now shares (as far as we know) Wael stands to lose more than if someone was prepared to take it on as a going concern buying the shares and any residual debt...
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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 22, 2021 17:06:37 GMT
I ought to keep quiet on this. I haven’t been following the he said she said, and care even less. From skim reading the SC’s long-winded whinge my main thought is ‘don’t then - sorted’. I’m also only back here to vent and share re the current blight on the club and get comfort that I’m not the only one. But this ‘revenge is a dish best served cold’ thing seems unfair and stooping to the SC/PC levels,of pettiness. I’ve long thought that the SC is a clique with a football team attached, not a vehicle for supporters of that football club. They’re now like a bald man demanding his comb back - and it wasn’t even his comb in the first place. WAQ is, I think, well intentioned and was needed and welcomed (by most) at the time. Decisions over the last year or so (the role of Widdrington, the managerial decision in Feb) leave me worried about his judgement. Nevertheless, if I were him then, and now, I’d have thought I’d want to work with the supporters’ groups. When they proved hostile, I’d have sought to address that, then both sides would say no more about it and move on with a revised view of our relationship. If they then took that latter conciliatory bit as a green light for further undermining, pops and sniping, I’d write them off (particularly now I’ve realised they’re wholly unrepresentative), turn their power supply off, kick their arse, and cast them adrift in an open boat. Nothing to do with ‘revenge’. Good luck to him on that score. God knows what they think they’re supporting. Good riddance. And if I were minded to volunteer, I’d happily cut out having to align myself with a rogue middle man in order to do so. I think me and you would get on very well Seth. Can I join you (and then we'll have a clique)?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 17:13:49 GMT
I think me and you would get on very well Seth. Can I join you (and then we'll have a clique)? It would be a pleasure.
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,178
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 22, 2021 17:15:01 GMT
I think me and you would get on very well Seth. Can I join you (and then we'll have a clique)? Don't you lot start!! Haven't we got enough already, bloody splitters! PS Can I join, pretty please?
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 17:16:10 GMT
Can I join you (and then we'll have a clique)? Don't you lot start!! Haven't we got enough already, bloody splitters! PS Can I join, pretty please? As long as there are no arrangement fees.
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Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,178
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Post by Cheshiregas on Aug 22, 2021 17:17:53 GMT
Don't you lot start!! Haven't we got enough already, bloody splitters! PS Can I join, pretty please? As long as there are no arrangement fees. What do you think I am, a lawyer or accountant
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Post by shineongas on Aug 22, 2021 17:24:32 GMT
As long as there are no arrangement fees. What do you think I am, a lawyer or accountant Football agent - Willie McKay comes to mind.
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Post by swissgas on Aug 22, 2021 17:30:21 GMT
What sort of opening bid are you expecting Chesh ? Wigan, with their modern stadium and training ground, were recently sold by Administrators for about £ 4 million and were able to make a completely fresh start. Swindon were sold for £200K with the new people taking on old debts of about a million owed to previous owners, annual trading losses of about £1.2 million and of course they lease their old but adequate stadium. With annual trading losses of £3 million, a debt to Dwane Sports of at least £10 million and a stadium in urgent need refurbishment or replacement I think selling Rovers at any price would be extremely difficult. And this is the problem which, in their clumsy way, I think the SC and PC are trying to highlight. We had Flook follow Holmes and Dunford follow Flook and Higgs follow Dunford and Al-Qadi follow Higgs because Rovers problems were always solvable. If you look at the problems we have now and consider how the market for football clubs works it is difficult to see how the problem can be solved without a formal process and even then the charge over the Mem could scupper it. As you and I know Swiss a company is worth what anyone is willing (or in some cases daft enough) to pay for it! Obviously many industries carry various multiples but football is a strange animal that causes many businesses to throw caution out the window. And of course, it does depend on whether you are buying out of admin or as a going concern. The big question is, will Wael, like Higgs, want his money back? Wael probably doesn't want to sell as KP suggests but that doesn't mean he isn't worried about the way the business is going or how he can rescue it. Which owner wouldn't? Nor that he wouldn't be open to selling if he could walk away graciously. I would suggest that, without a debt burden, Rovers offer a better longer term prospect with potential support than Wigan and Swindon, IF successful. It depends on whether Wael would need to be persuaded to depart and whether he would require his investment to be repaid. Very few clubs even at the top level are taken over without the departing investor losing money. It's the depth of that loss that will be the debating point. Otherwise its down the admin route and pick up the pieces, which seeing as the debt is now shares (as far as we know) Wael stands to lose more than if someone was prepared to take it on as a going concern buying the shares and any residual debt... We’ll have to agree to disagree about Wigan and Swindon. For many years I placed great emphasis on the Rovers potential factor but I’ve found that what buyers are looking for is a club which is ready to go with a fit for purpose stadium. Their main priority is the football team with any infrastructure improvements coming on the back of football success . And past performance plays a surprisingly large part in the level of interest. Obviously Wigan have had FA Cup success and been in the Premier League but even Swindon’s 1969 League Cup win and 1993/4 season in the top tier is remembered. There is a horse racing saying “if she’s done it once she can do it again” and that seems to apply in football too. So long as the money keeps flowing the main concern of Gasheads is about how it is spent and I’m sure everyone is disappointed that so much has been wasted because Rovers have never had access to this sort of funding before. Characters like Barton or Redknapp will have no difficulty in advising Wael to “rip it up and start again” because, as confirmed gamblers, they will be delighted to be gambling with someone else’s money. But anyone with Rovers best interests at heart must be concerned about what happens when the cash stops coming and that, with his track record, Wael may not be prepared for this or even know when it is likely to occur. That’s why I’m advocating Gasheads stop cheering his every move, start to politely question him on his strategy and not be put off by a response of “stop worrying I know what I’m doing” because that is exactly what Nick Higgs loyalists told us. I fear that if the £10 million charge was still in place then the Admin route would not work as it does for most football clubs and that is also something which needs to be addressed in good time.
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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 22, 2021 17:31:54 GMT
Can I join you (and then we'll have a clique)? Don't you lot start!! Haven't we got enough already, bloody splitters! PS Can I join, pretty please? we'll have to limit membership though - or else we'll have a pressure group, or even a mass movement on our hands time for cool heads, I think..
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Post by droitwichgas on Aug 22, 2021 18:03:56 GMT
As you and I know Swiss a company is worth what anyone is willing (or in some cases daft enough) to pay for it! Obviously many industries carry various multiples but football is a strange animal that causes many businesses to throw caution out the window. And of course, it does depend on whether you are buying out of admin or as a going concern. The big question is, will Wael, like Higgs, want his money back? Wael probably doesn't want to sell as KP suggests but that doesn't mean he isn't worried about the way the business is going or how he can rescue it. Which owner wouldn't? Nor that he wouldn't be open to selling if he could walk away graciously. I would suggest that, without a debt burden, Rovers offer a better longer term prospect with potential support than Wigan and Swindon, IF successful. It depends on whether Wael would need to be persuaded to depart and whether he would require his investment to be repaid. Very few clubs even at the top level are taken over without the departing investor losing money. It's the depth of that loss that will be the debating point. Otherwise its down the admin route and pick up the pieces, which seeing as the debt is now shares (as far as we know) Wael stands to lose more than if someone was prepared to take it on as a going concern buying the shares and any residual debt... We’ll have to agree to disagree about Wigan and Swindon. For many years I placed great emphasis on the Rovers potential factor but I’ve found that what buyers are looking for is a club which is ready to go with a fit for purpose stadium. Their main priority is the football team with any infrastructure improvements coming on the back of football success . And past performance plays a surprisingly large part in the level of interest. Obviously Wigan have had FA Cup success and been in the Premier League but even Swindon’s 1969 League Cup win and 1993/4 season in the top tier is remembered. There is a horse racing saying “if she’s done it once she can do it again” and that seems to apply in football too. So long as the money keeps flowing the main concern of Gasheads is about how it is spent and I’m sure everyone is disappointed that so much has been wasted because Rovers have never had access to this sort of funding before. Characters like Barton or Redknapp will have no difficulty in advising Wael to “rip it up and start again” because, as confirmed gamblers, they will be delighted to be gambling with someone else’s money. But anyone with Rovers best interests at heart must be concerned about what happens when the cash stops coming and that, with his track record, Wael may not be prepared for this or even know when it is likely to occur. That’s why I’m advocating Gasheads stop cheering his every move, start to politely question him on his strategy and not be put off by a response of “stop worrying I know what I’m doing” because that is exactly what Nick Higgs loyalists told us. I fear that if the £10 million charge was still in place then the Admin route would not work as it does for most football clubs and that is also something which needs to be addressed in good time. Wigan and Swindon we're both fire sales so hardly comparable to Rovers at present, not sure there's been many transactions involving ELF clubs who were not in administration, or on the verge of going into admin.
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