eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,223
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 5, 2020 23:27:19 GMT
Good to read everyone playing nicely. It is an an emotive subject, but one that needs debate. Polite debate. UTG.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 6, 2020 8:17:23 GMT
Btw, at West Ham v Man Utd there was some vocal dissent too at taking the knee. That's two matches today we know of. What is wrong with freedom to express vocal pov without inciting violence? I didn't hear it at West Ham though I was listening for it and expecting it, on Talksport at 3pm at Millwall it was full blast.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 6, 2020 8:21:29 GMT
Btw, at West Ham v Man Utd there was some vocal dissent too at taking the knee. That's two matches today we know of. What is wrong with freedom to express vocal pov without inciting violence? Well precisely. People can express their opinion, or should be able to, without verbal or physical threats. If players choose to take the knee, why should they be subject to verbal abuse, including booing. Why are people so bothered about it? The general reaction to the booing is that it's disgusting. If there is any hidden meaning by booing I don't think I can see it, they disagree, but it's like booing a minutes silence, that's how it comes across. Does nothing to help make the point that still taking the knee at every game is unnecessary, because no fans have been in to observe/comment on it from day one, or even applaud it, they come across as straight racist, no questions asked. Which, let's face it, they probably are. It's Millwall, it's West Ham.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 6, 2020 8:27:33 GMT
yougov.co.uk/topics/sport/articles-reports/2020/10/16/do-fans-support-premier-league-players-knee-blm?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_questions&utm_campaign=blm_taking_the_knee_footballFans are pretty split on it tbh Not all against it may be racist though, I sense okay with BLM because most of us will agree there is still some way to go until everyone judged on their character not their skin colour, but cautious importing movements wholesale from the US. Civil rights movements work best when they conform to local injustices and circumstances. Liberal Democracy, Communism, women's sufferage, LGBT rights movements and any other zeitgeist defining social and political movements were successful because they molded to the societies they were trying to change. So there's an issue with the US dominating almost all discourse on the internet that their social movements inevitably bleed into ours relevant or not? does it mean the same elsewhere when that national myth is completely different? I don’t like when such things hijacked by media (sky sports) as a right on badge to wear, and commercialised, what premier league had done to remembrance is s***, pictures of falling poppies on big screen and sometimes not even a proper silence. Any spirituality of Christmas pretty much pulped by commercialism now. And BLM goes the same way. It’s true meaning lost. Practicing knee taking becomes counter productive on simple grounds of does it happen forever or till certain conditions are met, what actually is measured as improved when it stops? BLM can only be judged on real change, not amount of badge wearers, knee takers, power fist makers. the only practical purpose of knee taking is to inspire unity on recognition of racial injustice so there can be change. Only on achieving this should it be judged. Being bloody minded to a world, perceiving it’s out to screw you so you don’t trust and you ain’t gonna take no s*** is not the way to live. So what is knee taking achieving if it divides us now as neatly as that poll not uniting? It's like clapping for the NHS, do you offend people by stopping? People are scared to stop taking the knee, especially after the backlash QPR got. I think the point has been made, it's now unnecessary and detracts from and devalues the initial reason, and breeds only negativity at anyone's reaction to it, but that's only my opinion, it's a difficult one and i don't know what the solution is. That's sad, but I wonder if this is how it was invisaged, people confused about how to act. People shouldn't be confused, we should be able to voice our feelings and the more it goes on like this the less I feel I can say it without being dismissed as a boomer, or racist, just for disagreeing. I agree with the sentiment but it needs freshening up now. A new campaign, one to replace taking the knee. Punish Millwall, or don't, but don't ignore it, if you ignore it you condone it.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 6, 2020 8:29:53 GMT
Well precisely. People can express their opinion, or should be able to, without verbal or physical threats. If players choose to take the knee, why should they be subject to verbal abuse, including booing. Why are people so bothered about it? I disagree that booing is verbal abuse. It's a disagreement with players that choose to take the knee. What other vocal form of disagreement can be made that isn't abuse? Sing a song, 'we agree with you but it's time to stop and think of something else' That might be better..
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 6, 2020 8:31:11 GMT
I think taking the knee is a pretty empty gesture but I certainly wouldn't boo it. Hypothetical I know, but considering we have a minutes silence for just about anyone these days, I would imagine that if the present incumbent at No 10 died while still in office he would get one. Despite my feelings toward him I wouldn't consider for one moment booing. I note the booing was at West Ham and Millwall- there's a shock Yeah booing is stupid, look how many people disagree but wouldn't boo. I don't agree with turning your back either, I think that's asking for trouble, unnecessarily.
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basel
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,064
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Post by basel on Dec 6, 2020 9:31:57 GMT
John Barnes on taking the knee.
'It's only a few seconds' 'It's not shoved down your throat' "Keep your mouth shut and swallow it"
It's not a political thing to him. It's about equal rights for black people and that's it.
I think that's nonsense because we all know that some see BLM as John Barnes ,but many see the political side and expecting people to pretend that does'nt exist is wrong. It is political,BLM want to defund the Police,they are antisemitic etc.The money collected for BLM.They've already began squabbling about that!I don't want to see it infiltrate football and I suspect the majority of Britons are sick of it.
Apparently the Vicar of Dibley ,in a BBC Christmas Special, takes the knee, on talking about BLM, in a sermon.
Jesus Christ! Merry Wokeness!
Sounds like the worst C of E mistake since swapping Brahms, Haydn ,Bruckner etc for a tambourine,acoustic guitar and a pop music drum kit!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 9:41:30 GMT
I think taking the knee is a pretty empty gesture but I certainly wouldn't boo it. Hypothetical I know, but considering we have a minutes silence for just about anyone these days, I would imagine that if the present incumbent at No 10 died while still in office he would get one. Despite my feelings toward him I wouldn't consider for one moment booing. I note the booing was at West Ham and Millwall- there's a shock Yeah booing is stupid, look how many people disagree but wouldn't boo. I don't agree with turning your back either, I think that's asking for trouble, unnecessarily. The real question is, surely, are the objectives, the issues that gave birth to the BLM movement, met and resolved. If the answer to that is no, which in my opinion it is, how do we keep the issues front and centre of public discourse in order to achieve resolution? Taking the knee by leading professional sports players is just one way of doing that. It becomes tedious only when those players do it and no discernible progress is made. Which is where we are I would say. Some of us can recall vividly Olympic Athletes giving the Black Power salute in 1968, 1968!!. The absolute furore of the establishment...and nothing happened (apart from wholesale arrests in the USA) and here we are today, 52 years later discussing the same issues. Now if I was black skinned, Afro - Caribbean, a father, this would make me very frustrated (as a minimum). So a few white guys moaning about taking the knee, apparently utterly oblivious to the realities of life for dark skinned ethnic minorities, would just make me laugh, cause me to question those people's real base instincts, thus drawing a conclusion. Which, as a older baby boomer, one who witnessed in real time the realities for dark skinned ethnic minorities both here in the UK and the USA, it is a conclusion I also come to.
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Post by The Concept on Dec 6, 2020 10:06:56 GMT
Imagine being the sort of person that wants to boo people showing solidarity, standing up for inclusion, and standing up against discrimination and racism. I agree. What if the irony of standing up for all those things means you do just that. And not take the knee? Just because you don't conform to the gesture doesn't mean automatically you don't agree with inclusion, anti discrimination, and racism? Why can't anyone do this their way? Well your questions are to do with a completely different matter than the booing I was addressing. If you truly believe in showing solidarity, standing up for inclusion, and standing up against discrimination and racism, then of course you can do it in your own way. But if you do truly believe in showing solidarity, standing up for inclusion, and standing up against discrimination and racism, then you wouldn't disagree with or be against the action the players are taking. Thankfully taking the knee doesn't apply to those on the terraces, as a fair few on here would have trouble getting back up again.
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 6, 2020 10:07:50 GMT
"Booing" seems a bit silly. Same as "booing" your own team when they are playing badly. It's just a bit crass. Me, personally... when I'm back at the Mem and 'if' both teams are required to 'take the knee'. I think I'll just turn my back for 30 seconds. I don't think anyone should be forced to 'take a knee' for a Marxist led organisation (or for that matter, a Fascist led organisation). I hate political extremism. But that's just me. Everyone play nicely. UTG. The f*ckwits and racists seemed to have recently received Facebook medicine degrees, followed in days with virology and epidemiology doctorates from Google, and give the impression they have received all four volumes of Das Kapital in their cornflakes today. I'll wager my pocket-money that 99.99% of those booing at Millwall, could not write ONE sentence on how they believe BLM is Marxist-led. 99.99% - But that's only 0.2 of a person?!? Anyway, I agree that there will be a % of supporters (quite possibly a majority) who don't know about the political leadership of the BLM movement. (As for discussions about Marxism and other left and right wing extreme political ideologies - that can go into a separate thread). Here's what the Millwall manager has to say about it. www.fourfourtwo.com/news/gary-rowett-millwall-players-want-to-enact-change-instead-of-taking-the-knee-1607200105000Gary Rowett fears taking the knee is in danger of becoming an “empty” gesture after a number of fans booed when Millwall and Derby players showed their support for the Black Lives Matter movement. Millwall were welcoming supporters back to their ground for the first time since February, with 2,000 in attendance in south London for their first home match since the second lockdown ended. But their appearance, and Derby’s 1-0 victory, was overshadowed when a section of the crowd chose to boo both sides as players showed their support for the Black Lives Matter movement for racial equality. Twenty-one of the 22 players who started the game took the knee with the other, Derby’s Colin Kazim-Richards, raising his fist. "I think the club have done so many positive things in the community related to anti-discrimination through great initiatives. It’s a club that works incredibly hard to enact change and do something about situations we all feel we need to be more proactive on. We’re all disappointed we’re having to come in and talk about it.” However, Rowett revealed his players feel more can be done to tackle discrimination and racism. He added: “The players have released a statement together and said they don’t support it [taking the knee] as a political message but support anti-discrimination. Moving forward, like a lot of clubs, they would prefer not to take the knee and actually enact change. They want to be proactive rather than it being a gesture, which a lot of clubs are now saying is perhaps empty. That’s not my consideration, but they now feel that gesture is in danger of being empty.” I note that the BBC are not covering the Millwall manager's comments in any detail and are totally ignoring the Millwall players joint statement. How odd.
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Post by The Concept on Dec 6, 2020 10:17:12 GMT
Agree with o p. I think politics should be kept out of sport.It should be a free country to express any opinion unless it incites violence. So, why is booing consideration racist? I see these options for everyone: Make no noise. Make some noise. Make no visible protest. Make some visible protest. Combination of above. So, if you disagree with the premise of BLM being imposed on your club against your will, how do you lawfully protest if it isn't booing? I couldn't disagree more with you. John Arlott: "Say that cricket has nothing to do with politics and you say that cricket has nothing to do with life." "If it is argued that 'politics should be kept out of cricket' the only possible reply is that every international relationship, whether in sport or any other field, is part of the pattern of the way people live and behave, which is politics." Substitute 'cricket' with 'football', or any other sport - the same applies. Thankfully cricket and other sports stood up against apartheid, brought issues to a wider audience, and in helped play a part in creating change.
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Post by CabbagePatchBlues on Dec 6, 2020 10:17:43 GMT
It should be made compulsory at all sporting events until such time as the overt racists no longer find it amusing to throw banana skins, make monkey grunts and gestures and slag off black players, and the penny finally drops for the covert "I'm not racist, but ..." racists. What I find most appalling is the fact we have to pass laws to enforce things that should be on everyone's decency radar.
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syg
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,011
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Post by syg on Dec 6, 2020 10:32:03 GMT
It should be made compulsory at all sporting events until such time as the overt racists no longer find it amusing to throw banana skins, make monkey grunts and gestures and slag off black players, and the penny finally drops for the covert "I'm not racist, but ..." racists. What I find most appalling is the fact we have to pass laws to enforce things that should be on everyone's decency radar. Good way of creating booing at every sporting event in the country.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Dec 6, 2020 10:33:30 GMT
I agree. What if the irony of standing up for all those things means you do just that. And not take the knee? Just because you don't conform to the gesture doesn't mean automatically you don't agree with inclusion, anti discrimination, and racism? Why can't anyone do this their way? Well your questions are to do with a completely different matter than the booing I was addressing. If you truly believe in showing solidarity, standing up for inclusion, and standing up against discrimination and racism, then of course you can do it in your own way. But if you do truly believe in showing solidarity, standing up for inclusion, and standing up against discrimination and racism, then you wouldn't disagree with or be against the action the players are taking. Thankfully taking the knee doesn't apply to those on the terraces, as a fair few on here would have trouble getting back up again. Haha! With our aging fanbase, taking the knee replacement might appear more apt. My point was about conformity. Which I think bisects both our points and questions. Like I said before, I think politics should be kept out of sport, that's just my opinion, which sport in its very nature is non discriminatory in its purity. Sport is the very essence of benign natural selection, whatever creed, colour, race, sexuality, belief, etc...if you're good enough, you're going to be in demand. I can understand not conforming to the BLM movement when there are other mandates apart from equality which they're trying to disassociate themselves from. Also, whether you like or dislike taking the knee, it's a gesture that has been imposed on fans, obviously without some fans approval. There is no scope. The neutrality has been expunged. The diametrics have changed where one political agenda is automatically assumed, and any form of disapproval appears to make headlines because it has been deemed to not fit the 'normal' parameters of mainstream.....when in actual fact an expression of disagreement has been lawfully, peacefully conducted, probably where some sort of offence has been taken. Also, I think it's worth pointing out that some Millwall and some West Ham fans expressed an opinion. And even if it was the majority of 2000 fans it's still a minority of the whole fanbase, and completely unfair to assume it's ALL of both clubs fans.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Dec 6, 2020 10:35:14 GMT
Agree with o p. I think politics should be kept out of sport.It should be a free country to express any opinion unless it incites violence. So, why is booing consideration racist? I see these options for everyone: Make no noise. Make some noise. Make no visible protest. Make some visible protest. Combination of above. So, if you disagree with the premise of BLM being imposed on your club against your will, how do you lawfully protest if it isn't booing? I couldn't disagree more with you. John Arlott: "Say that cricket has nothing to do with politics and you say that cricket has nothing to do with life." "If it is argued that 'politics should be kept out of cricket' the only possible reply is that every international relationship, whether in sport or any other field, is part of the pattern of the way people live and behave, which is politics." Substitute 'cricket' with 'football', or any other sport - the same applies. Thankfully cricket and other sports stood up against apartheid, brought issues to a wider audience, and in helped play a part in creating change. Cool, we disagree. Sport brings us together, I love cricket too. Sport will unite. Politics will always divide.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Dec 6, 2020 10:39:57 GMT
The f*ckwits and racists seemed to have recently received Facebook medicine degrees, followed in days with virology and epidemiology doctorates from Google, and give the impression they have received all four volumes of Das Kapital in their cornflakes today. I'll wager my pocket-money that 99.99% of those booing at Millwall, could not write ONE sentence on how they believe BLM is Marxist-led. I note that the BBC are not covering the Millwall manager's comments in any detail and are totally ignoring the Millwall players joint statement. How odd. Um, the BBC have been ignoring what it wants for years! They are extremely poor at reporting objectiveness.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 10:42:38 GMT
The f*ckwits and racists seemed to have recently received Facebook medicine degrees, followed in days with virology and epidemiology doctorates from Google, and give the impression they have received all four volumes of Das Kapital in their cornflakes today. I'll wager my pocket-money that 99.99% of those booing at Millwall, could not write ONE sentence on how they believe BLM is Marxist-led. 99.99% - But that's only 0.2 of a person?!? Anyway, I agree that there will be a % of supporters (quite possibly a majority) who don't know about the political leadership of the BLM movement. (As for discussions about Marxism and other left and right wing extreme political ideologies - that can go into a separate thread). Here's what the Millwall manager has to say about it. www.fourfourtwo.com/news/gary-rowett-millwall-players-want-to-enact-change-instead-of-taking-the-knee-1607200105000Gary Rowett fears taking the knee is in danger of becoming an “empty” gesture after a number of fans booed when Millwall and Derby players showed their support for the Black Lives Matter movement. Millwall were welcoming supporters back to their ground for the first time since February, with 2,000 in attendance in south London for their first home match since the second lockdown ended. But their appearance, and Derby’s 1-0 victory, was overshadowed when a section of the crowd chose to boo both sides as players showed their support for the Black Lives Matter movement for racial equality. Twenty-one of the 22 players who started the game took the knee with the other, Derby’s Colin Kazim-Richards, raising his fist. "I think the club have done so many positive things in the community related to anti-discrimination through great initiatives. It’s a club that works incredibly hard to enact change and do something about situations we all feel we need to be more proactive on. We’re all disappointed we’re having to come in and talk about it.” However, Rowett revealed his players feel more can be done to tackle discrimination and racism. He added: “The players have released a statement together and said they don’t support it [taking the knee] as a political message but support anti-discrimination. Moving forward, like a lot of clubs, they would prefer not to take the knee and actually enact change. They want to be proactive rather than it being a gesture, which a lot of clubs are now saying is perhaps empty. That’s not my consideration, but they now feel that gesture is in danger of being empty.” I note that the BBC are not covering the Millwall manager's comments in any detail and are totally ignoring the Millwall players joint statement. How odd. My clumsy language, epping (though I think you're being a tad over-scrupulous 😉) Here's an edited version: I'll wager my pocket-money that the majority of those booing at Millwall, have no evidence that BLM is Marxist-led, and most, in all probability, could not define (without Googling) Marxism. Nevertheless, I respect your stance on the 'kneeling' malarkey, and perhaps like the vapid Thursday-Johnson edict that the NHS should be clapped, it has made its point and should be laid to rest. #UTG
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
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Post by eppinggas on Dec 6, 2020 10:45:23 GMT
It should be made compulsory at all sporting events until such time as the overt racists no longer find it amusing to throw banana skins, make monkey grunts and gestures and slag off black players, and the penny finally drops for the covert "I'm not racist, but ..." racists. What I find most appalling is the fact we have to pass laws to enforce things that should be on everyone's decency radar. Good way of creating booing at every sporting event in the country. Sadly, I think you are correct. The initial 'taking of the knee' raised a few eyebrows, but I think was overall quite 'unifying'. Other sports have now stopped doing it? It has now become divisive, and that's not good. I worry the problem will only get worse with larger crowds. I think it should stop now and another way of tacking racism be introduced.
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syg
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,011
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Post by syg on Dec 6, 2020 10:51:39 GMT
Good way of creating booing at every sporting event in the country. Sadly, I think you are correct. The initial 'taking of the knee' raised a few eyebrows, but I think was overall quite 'unifying'. Other sports have now stopped doing it? It has now become divisive, and that's not good. I worry the problem will only get worse with larger crowds. I think it should stop now and another way of tacking racism be introduced. Its been a joke for a while, i thought after it became a pointless gesture it would fade out quickly, now its become divisive. There will be booing at numerous grounds if they dont put a stop to it.
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Post by mangogas15 on Dec 6, 2020 10:55:35 GMT
I couldn't disagree more with you. John Arlott: "Say that cricket has nothing to do with politics and you say that cricket has nothing to do with life." "If it is argued that 'politics should be kept out of cricket' the only possible reply is that every international relationship, whether in sport or any other field, is part of the pattern of the way people live and behave, which is politics." Substitute 'cricket' with 'football', or any other sport - the same applies. Thankfully cricket and other sports stood up against apartheid, brought issues to a wider audience, and in helped play a part in creating change. Cool, we disagree. Sport brings us together, I love cricket too. Sport will unite. Politics will always divide. Sport divides as well, as we live in a 2 team city....
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