Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:25:57 GMT
My serious suggestion is for SC to appoint a Director who will hold the FC to account. One that communicates with press and fans. Not Ken Masters. I am no great fan of SC but this is probably the right conduit for protest, based on history. The SC have effectively divorced themselves from the FC with legal proceedings. So this gives them an opportunity to become more independent and therefore more forthright. Cast your mind back to the process Vaughan, any appointment has to be ratified by the FC. But you may be correct, it would be horrible PR for the FC to reject a candidate with no good reason, and that would give the individual a nice platform. I'll wager though that the present SC would rally against any such candidate. They did, very much so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:29:15 GMT
Cast your mind back to the process Vaughan, any appointment has to be ratified by the FC. But you may be correct, it would be horrible PR for the FC to reject a candidate with no good reason, and that would give the individual a nice platform. I'll wager though that the present SC would rally against any such candidate. They did, very much so. And would again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:34:45 GMT
Interesting discussion.
It's often repeated from many different perspectives that Rovers fans are particularly 'apathetic' or 'disengaged' or 'disinterested'? Is this really true or is it just about context?
The examples most people cite of fans getting off their backsides to do something tend to have only happened after clubs have bottomed-out or perceived to have done so. Exeter, Portsmouth, AFC Wimbledon (maybe even FC United) are all good stories of a fan base being galvanised but in all cases it was a reaction to some kind of specific crisis/collapse. There are other less famous (and often less successful examples) of fan movements forming in similar moments such as Brighton, Notts County and Luton Town. So perhaps we are not that unusual and maybe it's only the real prospect of imminent disaster that creates the incentives for mass involvement. I can't think of an example of any kind of fan movement that evolved from a position of relative strength. I'd suggest fans are reactionary by nature not proactive and it might be unrealistic to expect anything else but that's not the same thing as being apathetic.
After all when we did face the existential crisis of being chucked out of Eastville the fanbase clearly did step up massively. I appreciate that people who contributed significant time and effort to reform the club over the years have very good reasons to feel jaded that not enough were prepared to follow them up the mountain but I'm not sure that neccesarily means there's anything uniquely apathetic about Rovers fans.
Point of order by the way - Stockport was cited somewhere above as an example of what could happen to us. Well, should the worst predictions in this thread come true then we could probably do a lot worse than 'doing a Stockport'. Fans kept the club alive, crucially found a way to keep the ground, they finally turned the corner last year and have just sold controlling interest to a local millionaire with intentions to return them to a solid league football basis. They could well go zipping passed us.....
Good post Irish. What is the story with Stockport and their ground? I thought that when they got into trouble they sold out to the Rugby league club owner and became tenants.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:35:08 GMT
Bamber's behaviour over literally years on here would catch up with him double quick time if he ever tried to hold a formal position, but he's more than happy to work in the background. You know that you are him still?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:35:36 GMT
Interesting discussion.
It's often repeated from many different perspectives that Rovers fans are particularly 'apathetic' or 'disengaged' or 'disinterested'? Is this really true or is it just about context?
The examples most people cite of fans getting off their backsides to do something tend to have only happened after clubs have bottomed-out or perceived to have done so. Exeter, Portsmouth, AFC Wimbledon (maybe even FC United) are all good stories of a fan base being galvanised but in all cases it was a reaction to some kind of specific crisis/collapse. There are other less famous (and often less successful examples) of fan movements forming in similar moments such as Brighton, Notts County and Luton Town. So perhaps we are not that unusual and maybe it's only the real prospect of imminent disaster that creates the incentives for mass involvement. I can't think of an example of any kind of fan movement that evolved from a position of relative strength. I'd suggest fans are reactionary by nature not proactive and it might be unrealistic to expect anything else but that's not the same thing as being apathetic.
After all when we did face the existential crisis of being chucked out of Eastville the fanbase clearly did step up massively. I appreciate that people who contributed significant time and effort to reform the club over the years have very good reasons to feel jaded that not enough were prepared to follow them up the mountain but I'm not sure that neccesarily means there's anything uniquely apathetic about Rovers fans.
Point of order by the way - Stockport was cited somewhere above as an example of what could happen to us. Well, should the worst predictions in this thread come true then we could probably do a lot worse than 'doing a Stockport'. Fans kept the club alive, crucially found a way to keep the ground, they finally turned the corner last year and have just sold controlling interest to a local millionaire with intentions to return them to a solid league football basis. They could well go zipping passed us.....
I'm not sure that there was a particular crisis when the SS was launched, but what we did have was someone (JM) who offered leadership. Unless some kind of serious pressure can be brought to bear on these owners or somebody with very deep pockets parachutes in from nowhere, I'm sorry to say, my opinion is that this stadium is gone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:36:07 GMT
I dont know that for a fact, but given some of the names are the same, I would not doubt it. They claim the high ground based on their the history that they perceive. We made a huge mistake in 2003. That was to choose them as a vehicle with Geoff's encouragement. It still makes me shiver to look back and think we promoted a scheme that realised £1,000,000 and put that in the hands of that lot.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:37:10 GMT
Interesting discussion.
It's often repeated from many different perspectives that Rovers fans are particularly 'apathetic' or 'disengaged' or 'disinterested'? Is this really true or is it just about context?
The examples most people cite of fans getting off their backsides to do something tend to have only happened after clubs have bottomed-out or perceived to have done so. Exeter, Portsmouth, AFC Wimbledon (maybe even FC United) are all good stories of a fan base being galvanised but in all cases it was a reaction to some kind of specific crisis/collapse. There are other less famous (and often less successful examples) of fan movements forming in similar moments such as Brighton, Notts County and Luton Town. So perhaps we are not that unusual and maybe it's only the real prospect of imminent disaster that creates the incentives for mass involvement. I can't think of an example of any kind of fan movement that evolved from a position of relative strength. I'd suggest fans are reactionary by nature not proactive and it might be unrealistic to expect anything else but that's not the same thing as being apathetic.
After all when we did face the existential crisis of being chucked out of Eastville the fanbase clearly did step up massively. I appreciate that people who contributed significant time and effort to reform the club over the years have very good reasons to feel jaded that not enough were prepared to follow them up the mountain but I'm not sure that neccesarily means there's anything uniquely apathetic about Rovers fans.
Point of order by the way - Stockport was cited somewhere above as an example of what could happen to us. Well, should the worst predictions in this thread come true then we could probably do a lot worse than 'doing a Stockport'. Fans kept the club alive, crucially found a way to keep the ground, they finally turned the corner last year and have just sold controlling interest to a local millionaire with intentions to return them to a solid league football basis. They could well go zipping passed us.....
I'm not sure that there was a particular crisis when the SS was launched, but what we did have was someone (JM) who offered leadership. Unless some kind of serious pressure can be brought to bear on these owners or somebody with very deep pockets parachutes in from nowhere, I'm sorry to say, my opinion is that this stadium is gone. Bamber, That first paragraph is not true.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:40:36 GMT
I'm not sure that there was a particular crisis when the SS was launched, but what we did have was someone (JM) who offered leadership. Unless some kind of serious pressure can be brought to bear on these owners or somebody with very deep pockets parachutes in from nowhere, I'm sorry to say, my opinion is that this stadium is gone. Bamber, That first paragraph is not true. A crisis was sold as part of the advertising, but I was never convinced. I can't prove that the Directors at the time would have, collectively, continued to fund the losses as they were then, you can't prove that they wouldn't have. All that we know is that an agreement was reached to allow supporters to invest so that the burden was lessened on the existing shareholders.
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harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5,393
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Post by harrybuckle on Jan 20, 2020 17:43:46 GMT
Bamber, That first paragraph is not true. A crisis was sold as part of the advertising, but I was never convinced. I can't prove that the Directors at the time would have, collectively, continued to fund the losses as they were then, you can't prove that they wouldn't have. All that we know is that an agreement was reached to allow supporters to invest so that the burden was lessened on the existing shareholders. Is it time to resurrect the Bristol Party ? Political opportunist to make Rovers great again
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Jan 20, 2020 17:46:53 GMT
The Armageddon for me is that they sell our ground to wipe out the debt, without us having moved into a new ground first.
Where is the protection against this? Where are the questions / and focus? Is that fear real?
Let's start with an absolute zero of trust and someone probe.
It needs a decent journalist (Andy Howard perhaps) and some supporters to raise concerns, albeit probably not Jim and the boys, who will just react if the sh*t happens. The Fantasist versus the Fatalists.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:47:39 GMT
Bamber, That first paragraph is not true. A crisis was sold as part of the advertising, but I was never convinced. I can't prove that the Directors at the time would have, collectively, continued to fund the losses as they were then, you can't prove that they wouldn't have. All that we know is that an agreement was reached to allow supporters to invest so that the burden was lessened on the existing shareholders. That's not true either.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 17:48:51 GMT
A crisis was sold as part of the advertising, but I was never convinced. I can't prove that the Directors at the time would have, collectively, continued to fund the losses as they were then, you can't prove that they wouldn't have. All that we know is that an agreement was reached to allow supporters to invest so that the burden was lessened on the existing shareholders. Is it time to resurrect the Bristol Party ? Political opportunist to make Rovers great again Dont be silly Mike. We do need a proper discussion.
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harrybuckle
Always look on the bright side
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5,393
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Post by harrybuckle on Jan 20, 2020 17:56:35 GMT
Is it time to resurrect the Bristol Party ? Political opportunist to make Rovers great again Dont be silly Mike. We do need a proper discussion. Maybe form a keyboard warrior association KWA sure has a ring about it Call me old fashioned if you like but the fanzine generation is over owners are oblivious to fans outrage. Rr
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
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Post by irishrover on Jan 20, 2020 18:03:53 GMT
Interesting discussion.
It's often repeated from many different perspectives that Rovers fans are particularly 'apathetic' or 'disengaged' or 'disinterested'? Is this really true or is it just about context?
The examples most people cite of fans getting off their backsides to do something tend to have only happened after clubs have bottomed-out or perceived to have done so. Exeter, Portsmouth, AFC Wimbledon (maybe even FC United) are all good stories of a fan base being galvanised but in all cases it was a reaction to some kind of specific crisis/collapse. There are other less famous (and often less successful examples) of fan movements forming in similar moments such as Brighton, Notts County and Luton Town. So perhaps we are not that unusual and maybe it's only the real prospect of imminent disaster that creates the incentives for mass involvement. I can't think of an example of any kind of fan movement that evolved from a position of relative strength. I'd suggest fans are reactionary by nature not proactive and it might be unrealistic to expect anything else but that's not the same thing as being apathetic.
After all when we did face the existential crisis of being chucked out of Eastville the fanbase clearly did step up massively. I appreciate that people who contributed significant time and effort to reform the club over the years have very good reasons to feel jaded that not enough were prepared to follow them up the mountain but I'm not sure that neccesarily means there's anything uniquely apathetic about Rovers fans.
Point of order by the way - Stockport was cited somewhere above as an example of what could happen to us. Well, should the worst predictions in this thread come true then we could probably do a lot worse than 'doing a Stockport'. Fans kept the club alive, crucially found a way to keep the ground, they finally turned the corner last year and have just sold controlling interest to a local millionaire with intentions to return them to a solid league football basis. They could well go zipping passed us.....
I'm not sure that there was a particular crisis when the SS was launched, but what we did have was someone (JM) who offered leadership. Unless some kind of serious pressure can be brought to bear on these owners or somebody with very deep pockets parachutes in from nowhere, I'm sorry to say, my opinion is that this stadium is gone. I'd agree but it seems to me that, while there are admirable qualities to many of the fan movements that have been referred to on this thread, even the most successful of them were cases of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
After all Wimbledon had been threatening to move for years (to Dublin, to Belfast, previous goes at MK) but it was only when the plan was actually realised that the fanbase was properly galvanised by which point it was far too late.
In relation to something like the SS - did it ultimately fail because Rovers fans are particularly apathetic (not denying this may be true) or did it fail because the 'crisis' wasn't perceived as acute enough to get a big enough reaction from? (Internal politics of the SC not withstanding of course).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 18:04:36 GMT
A crisis was sold as part of the advertising, but I was never convinced. I can't prove that the Directors at the time would have, collectively, continued to fund the losses as they were then, you can't prove that they wouldn't have. All that we know is that an agreement was reached to allow supporters to invest so that the burden was lessened on the existing shareholders. That's not true either. Yes it is, jump down turn around, no backsies. If we are talking about the Directors continuing to fund things, can I produce, as exhibit A, the speed at which the ones that remained all wrote cheques for the Rights Issue.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 18:25:41 GMT
Dont be silly Mike. We do need a proper discussion. Maybe form a keyboard warrior association KWA sure has a ring about it Call me old fashioned if you like but the fanzine generation is over owners are oblivious to fans outrage. Rr Not going to persuade you Mike, I fully get that. But would you agree the club cannot carry on, with any sense of reality or future, the way it is operating right now?
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irishrover
Global Moderator
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 3,372
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Post by irishrover on Jan 20, 2020 18:26:06 GMT
Interesting discussion.
It's often repeated from many different perspectives that Rovers fans are particularly 'apathetic' or 'disengaged' or 'disinterested'? Is this really true or is it just about context?
The examples most people cite of fans getting off their backsides to do something tend to have only happened after clubs have bottomed-out or perceived to have done so. Exeter, Portsmouth, AFC Wimbledon (maybe even FC United) are all good stories of a fan base being galvanised but in all cases it was a reaction to some kind of specific crisis/collapse. There are other less famous (and often less successful examples) of fan movements forming in similar moments such as Brighton, Notts County and Luton Town. So perhaps we are not that unusual and maybe it's only the real prospect of imminent disaster that creates the incentives for mass involvement. I can't think of an example of any kind of fan movement that evolved from a position of relative strength. I'd suggest fans are reactionary by nature not proactive and it might be unrealistic to expect anything else but that's not the same thing as being apathetic.
After all when we did face the existential crisis of being chucked out of Eastville the fanbase clearly did step up massively. I appreciate that people who contributed significant time and effort to reform the club over the years have very good reasons to feel jaded that not enough were prepared to follow them up the mountain but I'm not sure that neccesarily means there's anything uniquely apathetic about Rovers fans.
Point of order by the way - Stockport was cited somewhere above as an example of what could happen to us. Well, should the worst predictions in this thread come true then we could probably do a lot worse than 'doing a Stockport'. Fans kept the club alive, crucially found a way to keep the ground, they finally turned the corner last year and have just sold controlling interest to a local millionaire with intentions to return them to a solid league football basis. They could well go zipping passed us.....
Good post Irish. What is the story with Stockport and their ground? I thought that when they got into trouble they sold out to the Rugby league club owner and became tenants. It was Sale Rugby Union but that is basically true. However, most of it happened a relatively long time ago at the height of their late 90s success and was the source of their problems. It was almost the opposite that ocurred with us and Bristol Rugby. Sale moved in as tenants when Rugby went professional. I believe Stockport were one of the big victims in the ITV digital collapse as they were massively overspending to stay in the 2nd tier at the time. To get out of that financial crisis they sold the ground to the guy who owned Sale and became tenants. My understanding is that they then continued to be in acute financial decline for some time afterwards to the point where the guy who owned Sale bought the football club in order to secure the income but had very little interest in it.
When Sale moved into the new AJ Bell stadium with Salford Reds their owners interest in them dissapeared and he sold the club but kept the ground. There then followed years of wrangles as Stockport cycled through multiple owners complaining about the rent he was imposing on them. It was assumed that the owner of the ground wanted to force them into bankruptcy and then sell it off for development. The first half of that basically occured and the Stockport County that emerged from the wreckage had a strong fan ownership (not outright I think) element but was stuck with this terrible rent deal. They continued to decline, dropped to the Conference North (even went part-time I think) and were struggling at that level for a time. I may be wrong about some of the exact details but my understanding is that at some point during this period they did a deal with the council and the owner of the ground involving an agreement by the council to put some kind of covenant on the land to prevent development followed by a loan to buy out the owner of the ground at a knock down rate. This all took years to put in place.
Having finally climbed out the hole they were promoted back to the Conference last year and are in contention for the playoffs this year. Last week they were taken over by a local millionaire in a deal approved by the fans group that I think had at least a majority interest. So, while it's true that for years they were an A1 example of what can go wrong, assuming this isn't a false dawn they probably deserve to be considered a relative success story in the 'bouncing back from oblivion' stakes. Again, if the more gloomy predictions of Rovers immediate future are right we could probably do worse than look at what Stockport fans did. It was a very long road for them but it looks like they have managed to get there in the end.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 18:29:41 GMT
Yes it is, jump down turn around, no backsies. If we are talking about the Directors continuing to fund things, can I produce, as exhibit A, the speed at which the ones that remained all wrote cheques for the Rights Issue. The view we had in 2003 came to pass. The objectors to that view are still institu or sadly passed away. The Rights Issue was just poorly constructed Beaver Dam on top of the waterfall. By the way, too many of the objectors abstained at the EGM that really counted.
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Igitur
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 2,293
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Post by Igitur on Jan 20, 2020 18:30:25 GMT
We have had similar arguments or postings before, I certainly recall pointing out that the constitution of the SC starts: To create and develop active support and lively interest in the activities of Bristol Rovers Football Club, so it cannot challenge the club. The name of the club is a misnomer as it does not canvas the views of supporters or an individual and then represent them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 18:30:59 GMT
Good post Irish. What is the story with Stockport and their ground? I thought that when they got into trouble they sold out to the Rugby league club owner and became tenants. It was Sale Rugby Union but that is basically true. However, most of it happened a relatively long time ago at the height of their late 90s success and was the source of their problems. It was almost the opposite that ocurred with us and Bristol Rugby. Sale moved in as tenants when Rugby went professional. I believe Stockport were one of the big victims in the ITV digital collapse as they were massively overspending to stay in the 2nd tier at the time. To get out of that financial crisis they sold the ground to the guy who owned Sale and became tenants. My understanding is that they then continued to be in acute financial decline for some time afterwards to the point where the guy who owned Sale bought the football club in order to secure the income but had very little interest in it.
When Sale moved into the new AJ Bell stadium with Salford Reds their owners interest in them dissapeared and he sold the club but kept the ground. There then followed years of wrangles as Stockport cycled through multiple owners complaining about the rent he was imposing on them. It was assumed that the owner of the ground wanted to force them into bankruptcy and then sell it off for development. The first half of that basically occured and the Stockport County that emerged from the wreckage had a strong fan ownership (not outright I think) element but was stuck with this terrible rent deal. They continued to decline, dropped to the Conference North (even went part-time I think) and were struggling at that level for a time. I may be wrong about some of the exact details but my understanding is that at some point during this period they did a deal with the council and the owner of the ground involving an agreement by the council to put some kind of covenant on the land to prevent development followed by a loan to buy out the owner of the ground at a knock down rate. This all took years to put in place.
Having finally climbed out the hole they were promoted back to the Conference last year and are in contention for the playoffs this year. Last week they were taken over by a local millionaire in a deal approved by the fans group that I think had at least a majority interest. So, while it's true that for years they were an A1 example of what can go wrong, assuming this isn't a false dawn they probably deserve to be considered a relative success story in the 'bouncing back from oblivion' stakes. Again, if the more gloomy predictions of Rovers immediate future are right we could probably do worse than look at what Stockport fans did. It was a very long road for them but it looks like they have managed to get there in the end.
I never realised that they had been on such a journey with the ground ownership. Always one of my favourite grounds to visit and their supporters club bar just outside of the ground.
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