jackthegas
David Pritchard
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 12, 2019 15:34:22 GMT
Firstly, I am not sure whether this forum will still exist by the time this series concludes. I am very much a lapsed Rovers fan these days but I have enjoyed talking about cricket with all of you over the last few years.
I remember discussing our dismal effort at the 2015 World Cup and the need for systemic change. We had some talented players in the side but the mindset was wrong and we picked too many test specialists in our team. We needed to move on from the likes of Anderson, Broad, Cook and Bell and give players like Bairstow, Roy, Stokes and Rashid an elongated run in the side. We needed to adopt a bold strategy without fear of recrimination when things went wrong.
Fast forward 4 years and our one day side have pushed the boundaries of what is possible over the last couple of years. By contrast the test team have similar problems to the ones outlined above, all be it, the mirror image. We have spent the last couple of years picking too many one day specialists. We have had a muddled strategy and seemed to think we could succeed by playing attacking cricket all of the time. We have had an unsettled batting line up and have struggled to decide whether to pick all of our all-rounders and hope a couple of them can make a go of it at the top of the order or whether we pick less talented players who are top order specialists.
Whilst you can argue about the personnel the selectors have picked for this tour, the strategy is clear. Pick 3 red ball specialists at the top of the order. Give them a mandate to bat as long as they can. Wear the bowlers down. Put the best player back at 4 where he feels most comfortable, put the youngster at 6 to give him a chance to acclimatize to test cricket before moving up the order if he makes a success of it and have a wicket keeper and all rounder in the middle order who can take the game away from the opposition, bat well with the tail and counter attack. Pick the best spinner regardless of his ability with the bat and make sure we've got some genuine pace in the team. I think Sam Curran will play too giving us a left arm option with the ball.
I think it's the right decision. We have plenty of talent in the squad and we have 7 or 8 players who have the talent to be genuine World beaters in the right set up. There is no stand out team in Test cricket at the minute and in truth there hasn't been since 2008 when the Australian side broke up. There is a chance for someone to emerge from the pack as the dominant side in test cricket for an elongated period of time. England have the talent to be that side.
Like the one day side, I would imagine there will be bumps along the road, but I hope the captain, selectors and coaches have the resolve to stick to the plan.
I have seen a bit of Sibley bat. He is not especially pretty to watch and I do not think you could describe his technique as textbook, but he has a good temperament, has the aptitude to bat all day and bats within his limitations. He's worked with Gary Palmer (he of Sir Alistair Cook fame) and his influence is evident when you watch him bat. He's got quite an open stance but plays through the V a lot. I have seen much less of Crawley but I understand he is a bit more flamboyant and easier on the eye, all be it, he does not have an especially good first class record. Happy with him being on the tour, but I'd be surprised if he played.
I am not a big Denley fan. I think he had a fair amount of luck against Australia. A bit like Vince, he looks great getting to 30 and then he flashes at a wide one. Unlike Vince though, he had a few lives in the Ashes series, or missed the ball rather than nicking off. He did well enough to earn a spot on this tour though buit I would be surprised if he was still in the side in 12 months time.
I am a huge Jonny Bairstow fan and I think his dip in form has coincided with his influence in the one day team growing rather than as a result of him being shunted around the batting order. He has the ability to bat anywhere between 3 and 5 for England and average more than 45 I think. I am happy the gloves have been taken off him and I am certain he will get back in the test team. I do think some time out of the side will do him some good though. He clearly responds well to a kick up the arse but I also think some time away from the game to work on straightening out his technique will help. I don't think he will get the gloves back though. If it doesn't work out for Buttler then I think Foakes will come into the side.
New Zealand are an extremely good test side who are only hindered by their lack of top class spin bowling options and a relative paucity of Test cricket. The spinner won't affect their chances in New Zealand though and Bolt, Southee, Wagner, Henry and Ferguson are a formidable set of quick bowlers. They have a well heralded middle order but their unsung stars are Tom Latham who I think is the standout opener in World cricket at the moment along with Dean Elgar and their wicket keeper BJ Watling who is also one of the best in the World. Should be a cracking series.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 12, 2019 18:41:18 GMT
I hope that someone will come forward and we will be able to continue cricket chat into the future - apropos of nothing but since the closure of the BBC's chat boards way back when I've never really found anywhere to really chat English domestic cricket online (am allergic to twitter!) like this. Anyone know anywhere? Although to be fair an active and engaging forum on English cricket matters could be fatal to my faltering efforts to live some kind of rounded existance - this suits me about right!
The most important thing that I think this England do (and the early signs are promising) is go back to assigning players roles and developing in those roles. The main issue I see with the Test side is that we've just tried too many different things. Throughout the Bayliss era we seemed to change things up to quickly - not neccesarily in selection terms but in the roles we were assigning players in the team. That may simply reflect am understandable sense of unease around whether the balance of the side and whether we had enough test quality players. It might also have reflected the fact that we had quite a lot of flexibile multi-talented players we never quite managed to fit into a Test environment. Whatever the reason, there are very good arguments for going back to basics as you said Jack. I think our approach to Test cricket has become confused and there are too many sticking plasters rather than long-term solutions. Look at Roy last summer - I'm not sure it was the worst idea to consider him as an opening option but if that's what they wanted to do it should have been done 18 months earlier instead of throwing him into the Ashes deep end. They've never really figured what to do with Moeen, Bairstow, Buttler, Foakes, Denly, Vince, Malan and a whole host of openers who came and went. Now some of them may well not be up to it anyway but I feel as though they have all been messed about and as a result have either had stop/start careers or failed to achieve what they might have done.
There was a good point made in an article I read that listed the absurd depth we now have in the white ball game which means that some of the star performers in this recent series are still very unlikely to actually make it into the T20 team for the World Cup. It's baffling how in Test cricket we seem to have the opposite problem - a whole load of players who you could take or leave and not enough of a solid core.
Silverwood must be really pleased to have this tour act as a re-start button ahead of the new Test Championship. Real opportunity to look at how the team can be re-modelled without the pressure of having to deliver results immediately. I think they should make some big calls. File Buttler in the same place as Roy -brilliant white ball cricketer, superb talent, always been a very average red ball cricketer who has eye catching moments rather than a consistent performers. Let him go fill his boots in the franchises and prolong his England white ball career. Same for Moeen -Test Cricket clearly tortures him at the moment and he doesn't need that. He's had a decent Test career where he's badly messed around but let him go and be a white ball specialist and he could play for us anothe 5/6 years. Then you decide what to do with the rest. I agree wth Jack that Bairstow may be the long term option at 3 when he comes back into the side but he'll need to work his way back up there. In the meantime lets have a look at Sibley opening with Burns and, given the experimental nature of this series, lets try Stokes at 3. I genuinely he now has the best technique and temperament of any of our batsmen. He plays proper innings now. It would be interesting to see how he responded to the challenge. Root goes back to 4 - no brainer there. Pope can go 5, Buttler 6 (although obviously I'd have had Foakes here). Then you can mix and match the bowlers to see what fits - I suspect they will be unwilling to drop Denly though and may pick an extra batsmen. I hope Parkinson gets a go at some point. I don't really know what Broad is doing on this tour other than to send him a message that he's still in their plans. Ideally you'd want to look at people like Mahmood and see if Woakes is up to leading the attack etc.
I don't mind if we're a bit experimental for the next year as we have quite a friendly looking set of opponents but it has to be with a view to imposing a most disciplined way of playing and establishing clear roles for players.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 13, 2019 20:50:47 GMT
Good to see you back jack and irish.
With the England team I would guess that first of all they, the ECB, selectors or whoever, decide upon what they want from the next 3/4 years. Do they want to develop a team that’s going to be number 1 asap or do they want to give youth a chance and develop perhaps a bit more slowly and be prepared for the inconsistencies that come with younger players. I like the idea of Silverwood being appointed. Perhaps I’m old fashioned but I like the thought that he may have a far deeper knowledge of county cricket and will be prepared to watch it alongside the selectors and even travel to watch it.
I can’t disagree with what you’ve said jack about how the one day game and test team seem to have switched. The one day team did switch and the reasons for doing that appear to me to be to be the complete opposite of why the test team have gone backwards. After the dismal showing in the World Cup in 2015 Morgan was able to imprint his image and leadership on the team and it developed in his image. Perhaps I’m wrong but istm that a captain can really develop the team in a one day game more than the red ball captain can do so. So many other things come into it in a test match. Because of this Morgan and his team have developed a really exciting brand of cricket the formula being we will attack and if 3 of the top 7 come up trumps we will likely win. They can withstand a couple failing. And I think we will have enough players coming through to replace players as they age. Going back to the last days of Strauss just before we were number one there seemed to be a well-thought out integration plan into the England team which avoided large scale changes. But this has withered over the past 8 or so years. Now, in red ball cricket we need to change in a major way.
We need to persevere with Burns, has been the standout county batsman of 17 and 18. Sibley and Crawley have to be given the chance to shine. Have seen Crawley a few times but he didn’t score so I can’t really judge. Sibley I haven’t seen but the average score of both warrant serious consideration. Irish, I agree about Jason Roy, he had to be given the chance to open in test matches and because they didn’t take that chance to do so earlier on they did it in the test series. The Oz attack just bowled a good line and knew they would get him out. Obviously most of my cricket first hand is Taunton based and over the past four years if anyone can score runs there it pushed them up the list imo. Among spin bowlers Leach, Parkinson seem to be the best on the county circuit, not counting Simon Harmer of course. In fast bowling of those I’ve seen Graham Onions was the best of the rest and was unlucky to be where he was when he was. I obviously like the Overtons and don’t think Craig has let himself down at all. He did very well but is he likely to take a 5 wicket haul? I’m not sure he will but Jamie could well be. With his extra pace he does worry batsmen and makes them uncomfortable but his tendency to be injured may make him less reliable. Cook from Essex, Mahmoud from Lancs look good but replacing Anderson and Broad will be the biggest ask over the next few years. Wood, Woakes are good on their day but whether they’ll end up with the wickets that Anderson and Broad have ......
Another area that need to be addressed is the leadership of the test team. So much went into 5he one day squad and everything to do with winning the World Cup that the test team took a big hit. I’m glad that Root can return to his number 4 position I think it will make him more relaxed and allow him to captain the team with more confidence. He has known that when he was fielding he would likely be batting about 15 minutes later. I hope he can develop his captaincy against teams other than Australia who I still think he has a massive problem with, cricket wise and emotionally. Silverwood will have a different approach I hope and look to use his county cricket expertise.
The other problem we have is matching our county schedule to our test match schedule. Last summer we needed to try something different after looking outplayed but we had no alternatives because there was no county cricket being played throughout July and August. Not only was it annoying from a spectator point of view but from a cricketing point of view
it was crazy. It’s something I never understand. A county programme of 4 day cricket is quite possible in a test match summer and players need time in the middle, batting and bowling.
New Zealand is always a much lower key tour and I hope the players can get some good quality cricket against a team that is always underestimated.
Yes, it is good to have good quality cricket conversation which will be sad if this forum closes. Fingers crossed.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 14, 2019 23:51:54 GMT
Good point re; the schedules Wareham but I think we all know that we're shouting into the void on that one.
I agree with you on the Broad and Anderson challenge. Neither me or Jack touched on that but obviously that is the big elephant in the living room. If we're planing towards an Ashes series in Australia in 2021 then it's already 50/50 at best that they both make it in which case the whole bowling strategy needs revisiting. Archer is obviously going to become the main man but will he last? I worry England will overbowl him and it wouldn't take much for someone like that to duck out of test cricket to maximise T20 income. Many similar players have done this and it's hard to blame them. But beyond Archer we have a lot of interesting but quite raw talent. I agree that Jamie is the Overton with the higher ceiling but he can't stay fit. We seem to have quite a few young quickies around all of a sudden, it would be nice for one of those to develop. My feeling watching Mahmood bowl for Lancs is that he has the makings of a top class One Day bowler but I'm not sure about the red ball stuff but he definitely has something about him that's worth a look. Is Woakes up to leading the line?
Ideally you would have someone emerge as the replacement Anderson to partner with Archer. I'm not sure the modern game nurtures that type of player anymore though as it once did. So we may have a rotating class of quickies. The whole thing would become a lot easier if a truly World Class spinner emerges. Leach deserves a chance to see if he could be that player.
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 22, 2019 10:05:58 GMT
Interesting first couple of days. I thought day one was pretty good from England and they demonstrated a clear shift in mindset. The top order lacked a bit of temp and struggled to play a low risk, get off strike shot, but hopefully that will come as confidence grows. Yesterday morning wasn't very good. I know Stokes top scored and you don't want to curb his attacking instinct, but he should have been caught on 50 odd the night before playing a lose drive just after the new ball was taken and then played an awful shot on 90 which led to his dismissal and an England collapse. These are the kind of moments that England need to have fewer of. New Zealand were almost out of ideas at 270/4 and with a bit more discipline England could have scored 450+ and really set up the match. Pope's shot was really poor too but I think on balance there are more positives than negatives. Ultimately, most dismissals are down to batsmen error to some degree. Sibbley's shot for example didn't look great but I thought de Grandhomme used the crease well and created the angle that drew Sibbley into the shot.
I didn't see the bowling effort but it's certainly encouraging to hear that Curran and Leach pick up wickets and kept control. I think the bowling attack has better variety to it than previous line ups. If Leach can hold up an end then it gives us the opportunity to rotate our seam bowlers at the other end and the 4 of them all offer something a bit different.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 22, 2019 14:30:45 GMT
Interesting first couple of days. I thought day one was pretty good from England and they demonstrated a clear shift in mindset. The top order lacked a bit of temp and struggled to play a low risk, get off strike shot, but hopefully that will come as confidence grows. Yesterday morning wasn't very good. I know Stokes top scored and you don't want to curb his attacking instinct, but he should have been caught on 50 odd the night before playing a lose drive just after the new ball was taken and then played an awful shot on 90 which led to his dismissal and an England collapse. These are the kind of moments that England need to have fewer of. New Zealand were almost out of ideas at 270/4 and with a bit more discipline England could have scored 450+ and really set up the match. Pope's shot was really poor too but I think on balance there are more positives than negatives. Ultimately, most dismissals are down to batsmen error to some degree. Sibbley's shot for example didn't look great but I thought de Grandhomme used the crease well and created the angle that drew Sibbley into the shot. I didn't see the bowling effort but it's certainly encouraging to hear that Curran and Leach pick up wickets and kept control. I think the bowling attack has better variety to it than previous line ups. If Leach can hold up an end then it gives us the opportunity to rotate our seam bowlers at the other end and the 4 of them all offer something a bit different. Yes - this is a decent game but England have just about managed to keep themselves a reasonable distance ahead from the 1st session and may have now reached a tipping point where they can really take control. With Williamson and Taylor both back in the hutch our 1st innings score looks a long way away right now. A good blast in the morning session could be decisive although you can never underestimate the capacity of the New Zealand tail to wag. It was tail wag that rescued us too - with Leach once again 'holding up de side' in true West Indian fashion. He's earned his promotion to 10 and Broad's earned his demotion to 11 for his inability to hang around.
Early days and, ahem, it is cleary 'evolution not revolution' but you could already sense a more steely approach to the batting. Partly that's to do with selection and batting order but there is a seriousness about England's batting which was missing at times in the Bayliss era. Sibbley's dismissal was a bit concerning with the way the bat was angled to mid-on - a bit reminiscent of Westley's obvious technical flaws but he grafted well generally and didn't look out of place. Once again we missed out on a 400+ score having set a decent platform but there are promising signs.
On the bowling side - it was another attritional and disciplined approach. Giving them little and wearing the batsmen down and it's given us a good upper hand here. I've not been as big a fan of Curran as a lot of people but that was an excellent performance. We should be dissapointed not to win the game here against a decent side.
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warehamgas
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 22, 2019 23:38:21 GMT
Two pretty equal teams at the moment with perhaps England having the greater potential. The batting collapse was disappointing and what looked like a sure 400+ was a struggle to 350. Leach is certainly a dogged batsman at 10 but watching that batting display made me think Jos Buttler is too low at number 7. When Leach came in Buttler was still on single figures and I thought that perhaps Buttler would be left not out after the collapse continued. Fortunately Leach stayed around to let Buttler get the half century. Watching the first session seemed a fairly good atmosphere, players looked relaxed and I thought it will be a good opportunity for the new players to get a feel for test cricket in as relaxed a series as you’ll get. I’m sure the more experienced players will warn them India, Pakistan and Australia will not be so relaxed but it’s good for the new players to have a chance to shine. Curran I do like because h3 seems to make things happen. Not sure he has great attributes but he reminds me of Basil dOliveira who was the go to bowler to break stands, Curran appears to be similar.(Sorry, that comment has just aged me but Curran has that ability to go under the radar). Watching this third morning though and the fielding will need to improve. I suspect Root will be giving a few rollickings at the lunch interval over some slapdash efforts.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Nov 23, 2019 16:28:48 GMT
Two pretty equal teams at the moment with perhaps England having the greater potential. The batting collapse was disappointing and what looked like a sure 400+ was a struggle to 350. Leach is certainly a dogged batsman at 10 but watching that batting display made me think Jos Buttler is too low at number 7. When Leach came in Buttler was still on single figures and I thought that perhaps Buttler would be left not out after the collapse continued. Fortunately Leach stayed around to let Buttler get the half century. Watching the first session seemed a fairly good atmosphere, players looked relaxed and I thought it will be a good opportunity for the new players to get a feel for test cricket in as relaxed a series as you’ll get. I’m sure the more experienced players will warn them India, Pakistan and Australia will not be so relaxed but it’s good for the new players to have a chance to shine. Curran I do like because h3 seems to make things happen. Not sure he has great attributes but he reminds me of Basil dOliveira who was the go to bowler to break stands, Curran appears to be similar.(Sorry, that comment has just aged me but Curran has that ability to go under the radar). Watching this third morning though and the fielding will need to improve. I suspect Root will be giving a few rollickings at the lunch interval over some slapdash efforts. Well it turned out that malaise lasted all day in the end. A bit baffling but I do think the wicket it quite flat and rewards batsmen who are prepared dig in and Watling did that superbly - nice to see an out fashioned keepers innings. An annoying gritty counter punch of the type Ian Healy used to specialise in. It does highlight issues with our bowling attack. Possibly the limitations of Leach as a consistent wicket taking threat. It also sets up a very interesting early test of our change of batting mentality. Since in the main it now looks like we will be having to make the game safe rather than set up a win. New Zealand will surely fancy completing the turn around - it's exactly their kind of game. |
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jackthegas
David Pritchard
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Post by jackthegas on Nov 25, 2019 13:23:56 GMT
Well that went south quickly! I thought New Zealand were brilliant and really demonstrated that they are an excellent side. Their bowling attack looks no more suited to taking 20 wickets on a flat pitch than ours does but they are a disciplined side who have scored a lot of first innings runs during recent test matches played in New Zealand. Most bowling attacks will look more potent when defending 600. Their basis for success is very similar to the one we deployed so successfully when we won the Ashes in Australia. Score lots of runs in the first innings and then bowl a disciplined line and length and rely on scoreboard pressure.
I think we tried to adapt our approach in this test match but we got bored before their bowlers. They kept bowling outside off stump and too many of our batsmen got bored of leaving the ball. I find myself having more sympathy with the new players, especially the young ones like Sibley and Pope than I have for the experienced ones. I still think Stokes was the catalyst for the England collapse. Had he batted with a bit more discipline then we might have scored 450 and the game might have played out differently. He also dropped Watling which obviously didn't help.
England need their experienced players to stand up. The team look dangerously close to one that is "in transition" and you need the likes of Root, Stokes, Buttler and Broad to take some of the pressure off the players with less than 10 caps.
I think there are questions to answer around Root continuing as captain. His leadership is uninspiring, but the primary issue I have is that putting Kohli, Williamson or Smith into our team would see us become infinitely more competitive overnight. Root was in that bracket a few years ago and we need that player back. When Vaughan was made England captain his returns dipped but that was compensated by some astute captaincy and, more importantly, by the development of the rest of the batting line up. It didn't matter than Vaughan's average dropped because Trescothick, Strauss and Pierterson were all reliable batsmen. England do not have that luxury at the moment. I know there are not many alternatives to captain the side but I think it would almost be worth picking a specialist captain if it meant Root rediscovering his best form. Broad might be able to do it as a stop gap, although I don't think he gets in the side in Sri Lanka or India next winter. Burns is obviously another option and I would have said Buttler was too before they gave him the gloves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2019 16:57:06 GMT
Two big moments cost England, having NZ 140 odd /4 and not capitalising, oh and the collapse. I thought Root should have lost the captaincy in the summer, his form is in the drain at the moment and he just looks lost. Just let him concentrate on batting. The "Big Four" is Kohli, Smith, Williamson and Stokes now in my eyes, Root is miles away.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 21:46:44 GMT
cricket as well as football all over the place I don't know how the Wookie finds time to assist bloody Jedis, the amount of different sport he's always following. |
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Dec 2, 2019 15:27:48 GMT
So there's evidence that England's new batting approach is working here then. We've properly ground this one out. Not really sure that we can force a result from here but I think Burns has silenced doubters for the time seeing and nice to see Root back in form.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 15:59:17 GMT
Two big moments cost England, having NZ 140 odd /4 and not capitalising, oh and the collapse. I thought Root should have lost the captaincy in the summer, his form is in the drain at the moment and he just looks lost. Just let him concentrate on batting. The "Big Four" is Kohli, Smith, Williamson and Stokes now in my eyes, Root is miles away. Any other players anyone want me to slag off so they get some form? |
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