Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 10:28:56 GMT
Vaughan, I am sorry I could not take up your sausage offer but perhaps next time.  The Foundation of Hearts which we have discussed in the past is certainly a model to aspire to. On their board they have accountants a solicitor a former bricklayer and a marketing man but most importantly they have 8000 members all of whom contribute financially. www.foundationofhearts.org/we-are/But, as you say, the problem at Rovers is there is no collective will to do anything and most fans shy away from trying to discover the truth because, IMO, they are frightened of what they might find. That may well be true, but the tide appears to have turned against the owners and with DC (who most people still respect) voicing his own concerns, maybe people are more willing to answer a call to arms
What any action requires is leaders and a vision (the irony of that is somewhat..)
as Bamber has said before, it's ok to propose something rough on an internet forum. Vaughn seems to have an idea as do you Swiss, but someone would need to stand up and sell it to the masses first
Good luck with that. As soon as someone proposes some sort of financial responsibility the masses run for the hills. Opinions on here shouldn't be mistaken for potential commitment from fans, the vast majority of whom go home after a game and just get on with their lives. |
|
Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,920 
|
Post by Peter Parker on Dec 10, 2018 10:34:34 GMT
That may well be true, but the tide appears to have turned against the owners and with DC (who most people still respect) voicing his own concerns, maybe people are more willing to answer a call to arms
What any action requires is leaders and a vision (the irony of that is somewhat..)
as Bamber has said before, it's ok to propose something rough on an internet forum. Vaughn seems to have an idea as do you Swiss, but someone would need to stand up and sell it to the masses first
Good luck with that. As soon as someone proposes some sort of financial responsibility the masses run for the hills. Opinions on here shouldn't be mistaken for potential commitment from fans, the vast majority of whom go home after a game and just get on with their lives. quite. People want 'them' out but that is about as far as anyone will take it
I just think that Swiss can talk about the Hearts model all he likes, but it would require someone with some acumen to actually do something about it and/or sell it to the club and/or the fans
As I say the irony in the lack of leadership and vision is not lost on me
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 10:36:20 GMT
Good luck with that. As soon as someone proposes some sort of financial responsibility the masses run for the hills. Opinions on here shouldn't be mistaken for potential commitment from fans, the vast majority of whom go home after a game and just get on with their lives. quite. People want 'them' out but that is about as far as anyone will take it
I just think that Swiss can talk about the Hearts model all he likes, but it would require someone with some acumen to actually do something about it and/or sell it to the club and/or the fans
As I say the irony in the lack of leadership and vision is not lost on me
Precisely. |
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 10, 2018 11:11:44 GMT
Crowd Funding needs everyone in FC pulling in same direction.
This is what happened at Hearts and also with Norwich (Tifosy)...plus others.
It's not a protest fund, a bargaining chip.
You need leadership, promotion, marketing and transparency.
Don't spit out your tea...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 11:47:29 GMT
quite. People want 'them' out but that is about as far as anyone will take it
I just think that Swiss can talk about the Hearts model all he likes, but it would require someone with some acumen to actually do something about it and/or sell it to the club and/or the fans
As I say the irony in the lack of leadership and vision is not lost on me
Precisely. What might have been had ego's not got in the way. IMO Bristol Rovers will bounce from one crisis to another until one day the big crisis will arrive and that will really test the resolve of the supporters and those who do have the ability to piece it altogether. I just hope that the club still have a stadium to play in if that crisis arrives. |
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 12:49:16 GMT
Crowd Funding needs everyone in FC pulling in same direction. This is what happened at Hearts and also with Norwich (Tifosy)...plus others. It's not a protest fund, a bargaining chip. You need leadership, promotion, marketing and transparency. Don't spit out your tea... What you need is someone serious to put it together, not an attention seeker on a forum just pretending that he's going to do it. Go on, prove me wrong, make me apologise to you Vaughan. |
|
Cheshiregas
Global Moderator
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 2,149
|
Post by Cheshiregas on Dec 10, 2018 13:31:49 GMT
Crowd Funding needs everyone in FC pulling in same direction. This is what happened at Hearts and also with Norwich (Tifosy)...plus others. It's not a protest fund, a bargaining chip. You need leadership, promotion, marketing and transparency. Don't spit out your tea... What you need is someone serious to put it together, not an attention seeker on a forum just pretending that he's going to do it. Go on, prove me wrong, make me apologise to you Vaughan. It's pointless squabbling with each other or throwing insults around. Similarly people spreading (to date all false) rumours about takeovers give people false hope. We had an opportunity to take a significant shareholding in the club to which a lot of people gave their hard earned money. First of all it was watered down, then the money was literally given as a donation without consultation. All it gave the fans was various people on the Board as fans representatives who varied between making an effort for the fans to treating it as a jolly to enjoying spreading gossip about what was heard at meetings. There is a hard core of cynicism from the share scheme that would have to be overcome and a general malaise of accepting that we are where we always have been and nothing will change i.e. RagBag Rovers syndrome. If something sensible could be put together there are, I believe, a large number of talented people who could make a real difference to the club if folks could work together and stop sniping at each other. Over the 50 years I have supported the club there have always been factions and there are now those who support the Board and those who are trying to undermine it for a variety of reasons. To go forward people would have to set aside past differences, pull together, and put their money where their mouth is. It's easy to snipe from the sidelines from wherever in the world you are. It's another to do something constructive and act mature and business like. Until the petty factions and sniping goes this club is going nowhere. |
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,109
|
Post by eppinggas on Dec 10, 2018 13:35:23 GMT
Crowd Funding needs everyone in FC pulling in same direction. This is what happened at Hearts and also with Norwich (Tifosy)...plus others. It's not a protest fund, a bargaining chip. You need leadership, promotion, marketing and transparency. Don't spit out your tea... What you need is someone serious to put it together, not an attention seeker on a forum just pretending that he's going to do it. Go on, prove me wrong, make me apologise to you Vaughan. I normally find you quite amusing Bambi. Not sure what Vaughan has done to make you so angry. But you are just being plain rude. Again. |
|
eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,109
|
Post by eppinggas on Dec 10, 2018 13:37:11 GMT
What you need is someone serious to put it together, not an attention seeker on a forum just pretending that he's going to do it. Go on, prove me wrong, make me apologise to you Vaughan. It's pointless squabbling with each other or throwing insults around. Similarly people spreading (to date all false) rumours about takeovers give people false hope. We had an opportunity to take a significant shareholding in the club to which a lot of people gave their hard earned money. First of all it was watered down, then the money was literally given as a donation without consultation. All it gave the fans was various people on the Board as fans representatives who varied between making an effort for the fans to treating it as a jolly to enjoying spreading gossip about what was heard at meetings. There is a hard core of cynicism from the share scheme that would have to be overcome and a general malaise of accepting that we are where we always have been and nothing will change i.e. RagBag Rovers syndrome. If something sensible could be put together there are, I believe, a large number of talented people who could make a real difference to the club if folks could work together and stop sniping at each other. Over the 50 years I have supported the club there have always been factions and there are now those who support the Board and those who are trying to undermine it for a variety of reasons. To go forward people would have to set aside past differences, pull together, and put their money where their mouth is. It's easy to snipe from the sidelines from wherever in the world you are. It's another to do something constructive and act mature and business like. Until the petty factions and sniping goes this club is going nowhere. Wise words. |
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 14:10:48 GMT
What you need is someone serious to put it together, not an attention seeker on a forum just pretending that he's going to do it. Go on, prove me wrong, make me apologise to you Vaughan. I normally find you quite amusing Bambi. Not sure what Vaughan has done to make you so angry. But you are just being plain rude. Again. Not angry at all, just don't understand why Vaughan keeps talking about this and doing nothing. I offered him £1000 P/A for the duration of his scheme, got silence in return. I don't think he has a plan or any serious intention of doing it, so have invited him to prove me wrong. |
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 14:15:22 GMT
What you need is someone serious to put it together, not an attention seeker on a forum just pretending that he's going to do it. Go on, prove me wrong, make me apologise to you Vaughan. It's pointless squabbling with each other or throwing insults around. Similarly people spreading (to date all false) rumours about takeovers give people false hope. We had an opportunity to take a significant shareholding in the club to which a lot of people gave their hard earned money. First of all it was watered down, then the money was literally given as a donation without consultation. All it gave the fans was various people on the Board as fans representatives who varied between making an effort for the fans to treating it as a jolly to enjoying spreading gossip about what was heard at meetings. There is a hard core of cynicism from the share scheme that would have to be overcome and a general malaise of accepting that we are where we always have been and nothing will change i.e. RagBag Rovers syndrome. If something sensible could be put together there are, I believe, a large number of talented people who could make a real difference to the club if folks could work together and stop sniping at each other.
Over the 50 years I have supported the club there have always been factions and there are now those who support the Board and those who are trying to undermine it for a variety of reasons. To go forward people would have to set aside past differences, pull together, and put their money where their mouth is. It's easy to snipe from the sidelines from wherever in the world you are. It's another to do something constructive and act mature and business like.
Until the petty factions and sniping goes this club is going nowhere.This is exactly my point, he keeps talking about it but does nothing. Hamer is unlikely to invite him with open arms, he's rocking up, having insulted the man on this forum and holding an empty sack. I'm not saying that it can't or won't work, but talking about it won't make it happen, so when he starts posting the same stuff again it starts looking like little more than attention seeking, hence my invitation for him to jolly well show me that's not the case at all and make the thing happen. Then I'll owe him an apology, which I'll be delighted to give. |
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 10, 2018 14:17:37 GMT
There are no individuals with crowd-funding, hence the title. No factions, no attention seekers, just a platform for raising money for a specific cause. Debt / equity bonds that are managed via a platform subject to Finance Conduct Authority. That is, people get a definite return on their investment (see Share Scheme). However, it is the Club who have to agree to the bonds. That is the instrument for investment. Sorry, if I have to keep repeating myself, but this appears to be the only game in town. No factions in SC. Just transparent investment. www.tifosy.com |
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 14:31:49 GMT
There are no individuals with crowd-funding, hence the title. No factions, no attention seekers, just a platform for raising money for a specific cause. Debt / equity bonds that are managed via a platform subject to Finance Conduct Authority. That is, people get a definite return on their investment (see Share Scheme). However, it is the Club who have to agree to the bonds. That is the instrument for investment. Sorry, if I have to keep repeating myself, but this appears to be the only game in town. No factions in SC. Just transparent investment. www.tifosy.comAnd you are doing what? What was Hamer going to say to a bloke who insults him on forums then gets in touch offering millions but not holding a single penny? Sorry Vaughan but we did this conversation months ago, you are bringing it up again having done, as far as I'm aware, no work to put together, no team, no prospectus, no pledges. Do you expect someone else to do it all for you? Maybe you do. You don't have to keep repeating yourself, you know who the people are who set up the Share Scheme, Terry is talking in positive terms on this thread, he's one smart cookie, you like to talk in some kind of business jargon so you probably know similarly minded people, make some calls, make the thing happen. |
|
|
|
Post by fatherjackhackett on Dec 10, 2018 15:13:08 GMT
There are no individuals with crowd-funding, hence the title. No factions, no attention seekers, just a platform for raising money for a specific cause. Debt / equity bonds that are managed via a platform subject to Finance Conduct Authority. That is, people get a definite return on their investment (see Share Scheme). However, it is the Club who have to agree to the bonds. That is the instrument for investment. Sorry, if I have to keep repeating myself, but this appears to be the only game in town. No factions in SC. Just transparent investment. www.tifosy.comAnd you are doing what? What was Hamer going to say to a bloke who insults him on forums then gets in touch offering millions but not holding a single penny? Sorry Vaughan but we did this conversation months ago, you are bringing it up again having done, as far as I'm aware, no work to put together, no team, no prospectus, no pledges. Do you expect someone else to do it all for you? Maybe you do. You don't have to keep repeating yourself, you know who the people are who set up the Share Scheme, Terry is talking in positive terms on this thread, he's one smart cookie, you like to talk in some kind of business jargon so you probably know similarly minded people, make some calls, make the thing happen. So when the day comes that Bristol Rovers Football Club needs you at least you can honestly turn round and say that you were too busy by cynical on an Internet forum. That’s exactly the attitude we need!!!! |
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 15:26:22 GMT
And you are doing what? What was Hamer going to say to a bloke who insults him on forums then gets in touch offering millions but not holding a single penny? Sorry Vaughan but we did this conversation months ago, you are bringing it up again having done, as far as I'm aware, no work to put together, no team, no prospectus, no pledges. Do you expect someone else to do it all for you? Maybe you do. You don't have to keep repeating yourself, you know who the people are who set up the Share Scheme, Terry is talking in positive terms on this thread, he's one smart cookie, you like to talk in some kind of business jargon so you probably know similarly minded people, make some calls, make the thing happen. So when the day comes that Bristol Rovers Football Club needs you at least you can honestly turn round and say that you were too busy by cynical on an Internet forum. That’s exactly the attitude we need!!!! You have no idea what I would do if the club was in crisis and needed funds or time. But thanks for your cynical thoughts anyway. |
|
|
|
Post by swissgas on Dec 10, 2018 16:13:30 GMT
I do feel a certain responsibility because I've pounded out ideas on the forums for many years which could be construed as leading people on a bit. Whilst doing this I have spent time and effort, with many different potential investors, trying to get to Rovers properly financed and properly managed but regrettably I have failed in that. Cheshire Gas (Terry) will remember that seven years ago I contacted him for advice because I was talking to an American company which had previously tried to take over a number of British Clubs including Glasgow Rangers and Tranmere Rovers. As alluded to in a post a few weeks ago I came to realize that this company was not in a position to fulfill what I saw as Rovers goals and so I stopped the talks. Their basic model was that they acted for wealthy individuals with cash to spare who fancied getting into professional sport. The cash which these investors put in would help to leverage other funding which would make a deal viable and they would set about restructuring the business/club to maximise it's potential. In other words there was some cash available but most of it would come from refinancing assets and using the support base as a funder through such things as selling long term debenture season tickets to generate cash. Even with someone willing to put in several millions upfront and unsecured to start the ball rolling I thought this concept would be unworkable so you will understand my horror at the Dwane Sports 100% asset refinancing model. On February 11th 2015, in Phoenix Arizona, a proposal to acquire Rovers was considered by a group of wealthy individuals who were looking to get into professional football. My introduction was made by a former Scottish International who knew Gerry Francis and was living and working in Arizona. With Rovers in the Conference at the time it was always going to be a very hard sell. Although they didn't take it any further I was complimented on the proposal and it was commented that, to them, it was refreshing to see an honest appraisal rather than the usual BS they were presented with by so called "professional" football agents. In reality Rovers were far too low down the pecking order for them and they ended up buying the Spanish club Real Mallorca. I have had other conversations and made outline proposals to people since then without success but, although I haven't managed it, that is not to say someone else could not succeed. The Swansea City model is one worth looking seriously at IMO. Wealthy individuals willing to invest equity combined with a well organized and well funded supporters organization. The supporters organization needs to come first because that has to formulate the plan and attract the outside investors. As Cheshire says, it is time to stop squabbling and for someone to get the Supporters Club, Presidents Club and supporters who own businesses which sponsor the club around a table to discuss the future. I am afraid it is likely the Mem will have to be taken out of the equation for the obvious reason that it is worth too much as a development site and not enough as a football stadium. Like Swansea help would have to be sought from a local authority and in the future Rovers stadium would have to be leased. This is just one idea, one vision if you like, and there must be others like Vaughan who have their own thoughts about what could be done. I think I said the same thing about ten years ago (and that worked out well !) but isn't it more stimulating to debate positive potential ways forward rather than fall back on the old mantra about there being nothing we can do about it so we may as well just sit back and enjoy (  ) the ride ? |
|
vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
|
Post by vaughan on Dec 10, 2018 16:24:30 GMT
I will try to explain a bond, as it has been described as business jargon. In return for money invested, the individual receives money and interest at end of bond. That is a debt bond. An equity bond is in return for money invested, the individual receives equity, ie shares. However, you have to gain agreement of the owners to achieve this. They have to repay the debt or agree release of equity. Otherwise what is the individual investing it. It is not a gift. It is for individual funders. Probable starting point of £500. Steve Hamer, Steve Brookfield and Wael have met with reps of Tifosy. Hani did not like the idea. I spoke to Tifosy myself, who confirmed this. Tifosy would run the platform and help market it. Norwich raised £5m to build a training ground. Key word summary: Investment, Not a gift. DYOR www.tifosy.com |
|
Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2018 18:03:39 GMT
I will try to explain a bond, as it has been described as business jargon. In return for money invested, the individual receives money and interest at end of bond. That is a debt bond. An equity bond is in return for money invested, the individual receives equity, ie shares. However, you have to gain agreement of the owners to achieve this. They have to repay the debt or agree release of equity. Otherwise what is the individual investing it. It is not a gift. It is for individual funders. Probable starting point of £500. Steve Hamer, Steve Brookfield and Wael have met with reps of Tifosy. Hani did not like the idea. I spoke to Tifosy myself, who confirmed this. Tifosy would run the platform and help market it. Norwich raised £5m to build a training ground. Key word summary: Investment, Not a gift. DYOR www.tifosy.comOh right, so which is it then, if it's that the FC owners have explored it and aren't interested then why are you still even talking about it, or is it that you have nothing to offer and were just told to go away? Yet again, these owners have actively sought outside investment, it was confirmed that Wael was meeting potential investors, even the location was confirmed, so as long as there is proof of funds, proof of source of funds (legal requirement as you, being a seasoned businessman would know) and heads of terms can be agreed then I can see no reason why you shouldn't have their ear. What do you think is going to happen when their liability exceeds the value of the primary asset? I'll tell you this much, Hani won't like that and will be delighted if there's someone sat opposite him to share the risk and help fund the running of the club. Anyway, Swiss pointed you towards a different model, how far are you along with that? |
|
|
|
Post by fatherjackhackett on Dec 10, 2018 18:21:44 GMT
I will try to explain a bond, as it has been described as business jargon. In return for money invested, the individual receives money and interest at end of bond. That is a debt bond. An equity bond is in return for money invested, the individual receives equity, ie shares. However, you have to gain agreement of the owners to achieve this. They have to repay the debt or agree release of equity. Otherwise what is the individual investing it. It is not a gift. It is for individual funders. Probable starting point of £500. Steve Hamer, Steve Brookfield and Wael have met with reps of Tifosy. Hani did not like the idea. I spoke to Tifosy myself, who confirmed this. Tifosy would run the platform and help market it. Norwich raised £5m to build a training ground. Key word summary: Investment, Not a gift. DYOR www.tifosy.comAnd therein lies the problem. The sole higher power is Hani. Hani is a banker. Hani doesn’t care for football, only profit. Hani comes to the UK about as often as Roman Abramovich these days. We have no means of access to Hani. For as long as Hani pulls all the strings our football club is royally stuffed. AFC Rovers ground sharing at Yate anyone? And I’m only half joking - I just want to enjoy my football again. |
|
|
|
Post by a more piratey game on Dec 10, 2018 18:47:13 GMT
It sounds to me like Ed's plan is still alive, and there is a stand off over money and wael staying
DS will look to cut costs, Ed will hope to starve them out
|
|
) the ride ?