Peter Parker
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Richard Walker
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Post by Peter Parker on Nov 7, 2017 8:49:14 GMT
I hope you frown at yourself and show moral indignation when you pay cash in hand for anything. If nothing illegal has been done, than the fingers should be pointed at Governments and tax rules/loopholes individuals. We all avoid tax in some shape or form (legally or illegally) be it from Pension investments/ISAs. Paying the builder in cash It's only really the amounts that are different Paying the builder in cash is tax evasion, not avoidance, and is illegal.
Regarding pensions and ISAs, you're mixing up tax planning (or sheltering), and tax avoidance. Making use of intended tax reliefs is tax planning. Tax avoidance is making use of the tax system for your own advantage in a way that is not intended by the government. That's why there is a general anti-avoidance rule in UK law, lawmakers cannot be expected to think of every opportunity for avoidance, the system is too complicated.
The GAAR: "prevents the reduction of tax by legal arrangements, where those arrangements are put in place purely to reduce tax, and would not otherwise be regarded as a reasonable course of action." Putting money into a pension plan is a reasonable course of action, as a pension plan is intended to provide you with an income when you retire. Putting money into a savings account is a reasonable course of action. The fact that they are tax incentivised doesn't effect the fact that they are reasonable courses of action. Some of the recent revelations may well be illegal due to the GAAR - why are people putting money into businesses in Panama, for example, when they have no interest in Panama, don't live there, and the business doesn't carry out any obvious activity? Were it not for the avoidance of tax, would that be a reasonable course of action?
Good job none of us have ever paid the builder cash in hand then
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Thatslife
"Decisions are made by those who turn up"
Joined: June 2014
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Post by Thatslife on Nov 7, 2017 9:17:22 GMT
These people who legally dont pay any tax, they would all expect the emergency services to respond if they had serious problem, a fire or car accident etc they pay no contribution to these services. Plenty do pay Tax, they just minimise the amount they have to pay Ok I accept that but its annoying that when I was working, prior to retiring, I often paid 40% tax on my earnings, and yes that hurt, with PAYE there is little chance o reduce that.
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LPGas
Stuart Taylor
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Post by LPGas on Nov 7, 2017 11:10:12 GMT
I have ever understood why the channel islands, and the Isle of Man and other dependancies are allowed to be tax havens. If they get any monetary support from the government then they should have the same tax regime as we do. Or go independent.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 7, 2017 11:33:49 GMT
Paying the builder in cash is tax evasion, not avoidance, and is illegal.
Regarding pensions and ISAs, you're mixing up tax planning (or sheltering), and tax avoidance. Making use of intended tax reliefs is tax planning. Tax avoidance is making use of the tax system for your own advantage in a way that is not intended by the government. That's why there is a general anti-avoidance rule in UK law, lawmakers cannot be expected to think of every opportunity for avoidance, the system is too complicated.
The GAAR: "prevents the reduction of tax by legal arrangements, where those arrangements are put in place purely to reduce tax, and would not otherwise be regarded as a reasonable course of action." Putting money into a pension plan is a reasonable course of action, as a pension plan is intended to provide you with an income when you retire. Putting money into a savings account is a reasonable course of action. The fact that they are tax incentivised doesn't effect the fact that they are reasonable courses of action. Some of the recent revelations may well be illegal due to the GAAR - why are people putting money into businesses in Panama, for example, when they have no interest in Panama, don't live there, and the business doesn't carry out any obvious activity? Were it not for the avoidance of tax, would that be a reasonable course of action?
Good job none of us have ever paid the builder cash in hand then My main point was about the difference between tax avoidance and tax incentives. The key is intent.
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Peter Parker
Global Moderator
Richard Walker
You have been sentenced to DELETION!
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Post by Peter Parker on Nov 7, 2017 11:37:25 GMT
Good job none of us have ever paid the builder cash in hand then My main point was about the difference between tax avoidance and tax incentives. The key is intent. I wouldn't disagree with intent, but if it is done legally, than the authorities have to do things to make it illegal. That isn't the fault of individuals or accountants doing the best with the money to hand
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 7, 2017 13:27:22 GMT
My main point was about the difference between tax avoidance and tax incentives. The key is intent. I wouldn't disagree with intent, but if it is done legally, than the authorities have to do things to make it illegal. That isn't the fault of individuals or accountants doing the best with the money to hand That's what the general anti-avoidance rule is there for, unfortunately it's so woolly that HMRC are afraid to bring cases.
Then there is the question of morality. Tax avoidance is to some extent immoral, tax planning using intended incentives is not.
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Post by o2o2bo2ba on Nov 7, 2017 14:03:29 GMT
I have ever understood why the channel islands, and the Isle of Man and other dependancies are allowed to be tax havens. If they get any monetary support from the government then they should have the same tax regime as we do. Or go independent. Er, maybe because it suits the extremely wealthy and influential to keep it like that? Button lands his aircraft in IOM for a few mins and gets millions for doing so 'with a covenant' and that's legal. All the while, the average working person sees 25% of their hard earned extorted and in some way is paying for it!
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Nov 7, 2017 18:25:33 GMT
To me tax avoidance means our health service is starved of much needed funds. Seems a big deal to me and my family. Not just health.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
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Post by kingswood Polak on Nov 7, 2017 18:36:27 GMT
Guess the question is - to Governments of all persuasions over many a year - why have you not made it illegal to do this? Because it ain’t no good them getting the hump about it when the press are all over it and then letting it quietly go. It all kicked off last year and then fell away. Give a week or so and this will be much similar. If it’s legal some clever dick accountant will use it. Unless and until it isn’t..... Spot on, Sir. I look forward to the 'my accountant made me do it - I had no idea he was avoiding tax for me'. Do not tell me you pay an accountant all that money to ensure you pay every penny of the requisite amount of tax. No, you have an accountant for a reason. The exact opposite reason. To maximise you wealth by reducing your bills. Lewis Hamilton thinks he should not have to pay VAT on his private jet. But it is alright, because you pay VAT on your Ford Fiesta and tampons. What a patriot Hamilton is for thinking you duckwits can pay for schools/hospitals/sanitation/roads/etc, while he pays only what his account insists he needs to. What an outrage. Until we forget about it. Until the next time. We should stop putting up with this BS. But will we? No. as an aside, I think VAT is just robbery and none of us should pay it but I’m dreaming and apathy and indifference will continue to allow the status quo to continue
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bloogas
Joined: July 2016
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Post by bloogas on Nov 7, 2017 19:02:43 GMT
I wouldn't disagree with intent, but if it is done legally, than the authorities have to do things to make it illegal. That isn't the fault of individuals or accountants doing the best with the money to hand That's what the general anti-avoidance rule is there for, unfortunately it's so woolly that HMRC are afraid to bring cases.
Then there is the question of morality. Tax avoidance is to some extent immoral, tax planning using intended incentives is not.
I don't believe "woolly" or "afraid". HMRC/FSA/FCA have been led for some time by people from the banking/tax..er," planning ",sector for a while. They & their political masters are too close to the " industry " to have the motivation to challenge it,e.g. Cameron, who professed opposition to it,but whose father had used it. Actually, I can understand sporting/entertainment individuals who's earning career might be limited, wanting to protect they & their families future. Wouldn't you? It's the corporate stuff & corrupt politicians that really annoy me. But as said before, it's not illegal, just arguably immoral. It's down to politicians to address it.BTW,Juncker is a leading exponent of turning his country into a tax haven.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 8, 2017 8:55:19 GMT
That's what the general anti-avoidance rule is there for, unfortunately it's so woolly that HMRC are afraid to bring cases.
Then there is the question of morality. Tax avoidance is to some extent immoral, tax planning using intended incentives is not.
I don't believe "woolly" or "afraid". HMRC/FSA/FCA have been led for some time by people from the banking/tax..er," planning ",sector for a while. They & their political masters are too close to the " industry " to have the motivation to challenge it,e.g. Cameron, who professed opposition to it,but whose father had used it. Actually, I can understand sporting/entertainment individuals who's earning career might be limited, wanting to protect they & their families future. Wouldn't you? It's the corporate stuff & corrupt politicians that really annoy me. But as said before, it's not illegal, just arguably immoral. It's down to politicians to address it.BTW,Juncker is a leading exponent of turning his country into a tax haven. Agree to an extent - I'm not sure that the top people at HMRC deliberately turn a blind eye or are overtly corrupt, but I do think there is two more subtle factors.
- Fear of failure, i.e. they are afraid of being called out for spending a lot of money on court cases that they don't win; - Normalisation of dodgy practice - they are, as you say, from the financial industry, so where there is certain behaviour or activity that seems shocking to the layman, it wouldn't even occur to them that is anything but normal practice. Problem is, who else but industry insiders would understand it's workings?
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Post by billyocean on Nov 8, 2017 10:17:03 GMT
Interesting that people defend it or say it’s not a story as it’s “legal”. If we have a perfect legal system that needs no reform then yes, but the laws are changed continually and in some cases (refer to Panorama part 2) the rich are actually getting the regulation changed to suit them. That’s a bit like bribing the police to change the law so that you never get done for speeding but everyone else still does.
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faggotygas
Byron Anthony
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Post by faggotygas on Nov 8, 2017 12:13:06 GMT
Interesting that people defend it or say it’s not a story as it’s “legal”. If we have a perfect legal system that needs no reform then yes, but the laws are changed continually and in some cases (refer to Panorama part 2) the rich are actually getting the regulation changed to suit them. That’s a bit like bribing the police to change the law so that you never get done for speeding but everyone else still does. Indeed, legally ok is not always the same as morally right.
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