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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 20:04:31 GMT
Yeah, i just cant get my head round it all. Everything i hear makes sense but it still seems like an important peice is missing that doesnt make any of it make sense I agree it's hard to get your ahead around which is why I was so reluctant to post my thoughts about "suspicions" a month or so ago. None of it makes any sense unless you subscribe to the "cock up" theory which says the whole deal was rushed through to satisfy Wael's football passions and that no detailed due diligence or financial projections were done. Maybe the 'cock up' was not realising the difference between freehold and leasehold ? if that was the case then it all makes 'sense'.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 20:13:03 GMT
Yeah, i just cant get my head round it all. Everything i hear makes sense but it still seems like an important peice is missing that doesnt make any of it make sense I agree it's hard to get your ahead around which is why I was so reluctant to post my thoughts about "suspicions" a month or so ago. None of it makes any sense unless you subscribe to the "cock up" theory which says the whole deal was rushed through to satisfy Wael's football passions and that no detailed due diligence or financial projections were done. This probably only hit home when Mr Al-Qadi senior became acquainted with the full facts and realized the implications of taking on responsibility for huge trading losses and massive capital expenditure projects. Owning a football club is not bankers territory it's a "wild west" landscape where gamblers, like the Brighton Chairman, thrive and play with money they can afford to lose. Pessimist Gas gets frustrated with the hero worship of the owners and I get frustrated with the constant talk on the forums of Dwane Sports "selling" Rovers. It's as if fans expect there to be a war between "investors" outbidding each other to take on Rovers liabilities. "Do I hear £10 million ? .... £11 million from the gentleman in the dark glasses ?.. ., sorry sir I've got £12 million over there from the man wearing the straitjacket". All previous majority owners have had to write off substantial sums to relieve themselves of the financial liabilities which owning Rovers brings. I think the question we may have to ask is how much the Al-Qadi family are willing to write off in order to persuade someone to take Rovers off their hands. I have no idea who this other group is supposed to be or how it is made up, however forgive a old man who is losing his mind (well it seems that way). UWE have money and want a stadium, we have owners who have brought a training ground but don't know what to do with it now. Now the clutching at straws bit, we own (as in Dwayne sports) two bits of land, the mem and the training ground. Could it be that UWE (maybe with others) want to but the club, develope the new stadium and the training ground whilst at the same time use the Mem plot for housing / student accommodation? Barking mad I know but really do not understand what has gone on with UWE.
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Post by PessimistGas on Aug 23, 2017 20:16:34 GMT
Yeah, i just cant get my head round it all. Everything i hear makes sense but it still seems like an important peice is missing that doesnt make any of it make sense I agree it's hard to get your ahead around which is why I was so reluctant to post my thoughts about "suspicions" a month or so ago. None of it makes any sense unless you subscribe to the "cock up" theory which says the whole deal was rushed through to satisfy Wael's football passions and that no detailed due diligence or financial projections were done. This probably only hit home when Mr Al-Qadi senior became acquainted with the full facts and realized the implications of taking on responsibility for huge trading losses and massive capital expenditure projects. Owning a football club is not bankers territory it's a "wild west" landscape where gamblers, like the Brighton Chairman, thrive and play with money they can afford to lose. Pessimist Gas gets frustrated with the hero worship of the owners and I get frustrated with the constant talk on the forums of Dwane Sports "selling" Rovers. It's as if fans expect there to be a war between "investors" outbidding each other to take on Rovers liabilities. "Do I hear £10 million ? .... £11 million from the gentleman in the dark glasses ?.. ., sorry sir I've got £12 million over there from the man wearing the straitjacket". All previous majority owners have had to write off substantial sums to relieve themselves of the financial liabilities which owning Rovers brings. I think the question we may have to ask is how much the Al-Qadi family are willing to write off in order to persuade someone to take Rovers off their hands. I am struggling to think of any other plausible explanation. It is rumoured that the consortium includes former players /staff who would be in it for the love of the club. I have no idea if there is any truth in these rumours but they appear pretty credible on the surface - perhaps going public would force the AQ's hand? If not, I really don't know where we go from here. The Mem will be an hugely expensive and controversial project (probably more expensive than the UWE and with no land to sell) that will take many years to come to fuition. In the mean time the losses will keep racking up. Maybe cutting their losses won't seem like such a bad idea.
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Post by tauntongas on Aug 23, 2017 20:23:01 GMT
The thing that confuses me the most: (A) Accepting an imperfect commercial deal from UWE but be able to sell The Mem to raise significant funds for a purpose-built, brilliantly located stadium, with terrific infrastructure and potential. ...is worse than: (B) Having to find far more cash from pretty much nowhere, to rejuvenate an extremely limited site, in a limited location, with inadequate infrastructure but you have near-full control over. If someone can help me pick the bones out of that, I'd be delighted. I cannot think of enough plausible 'cons' in the UWE deal that would mean both UWE and Rovers can get sustainable, meaningful income from such a site, even if it was shared. Look all that you have to remember is that 'the Al Qadis are very successful businessmen' (don't ask for examples of their success though) and 'Wael is a gashhead'....anything else is heresy. So what examples of their failures at the club are being shouted down as "heresy", aside from the UWE situation which we are currently discussing and you are free to join in with?
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Post by tauntongas on Aug 23, 2017 20:32:36 GMT
Yeah, i just cant get my head round it all. Everything i hear makes sense but it still seems like an important peice is missing that doesnt make any of it make sense I agree it's hard to get your ahead around which is why I was so reluctant to post my thoughts about "suspicions" a month or so ago. None of it makes any sense unless you subscribe to the "cock up" theory which says the whole deal was rushed through to satisfy Wael's football passions and that no detailed due diligence or financial projections were done. This probably only hit home when Mr Al-Qadi senior became acquainted with the full facts and realized the implications of taking on responsibility for huge trading losses and massive capital expenditure projects. Owning a football club is not bankers territory it's a "wild west" landscape where gamblers, like the Brighton Chairman, thrive and play with money they can afford to lose. Pessimist Gas gets frustrated with the hero worship of the owners and I get frustrated with the constant talk on the forums of Dwane Sports "selling" Rovers. It's as if fans expect there to be a war between "investors" outbidding each other to take on Rovers liabilities. "Do I hear £10 million ? .... £11 million from the gentleman in the dark glasses ?.. ., sorry sir I've got £12 million over there from the man wearing the straitjacket". All previous majority owners have had to write off substantial sums to relieve themselves of the financial liabilities which owning Rovers brings. I think the question we may have to ask is how much the Al-Qadi family are willing to write off in order to persuade someone to take Rovers off their hands. So Hani (who started an investment banking business from scratch, 30 years ago) didn't get his **brother to bring a proper financial projection, including worst-case scenarios, for a multi-million pound project involving the purchase of a languishing football club, rebuilding a stadium and buying a training ground - or even feel the need to do it himself? Further to this, the deal was rushed through, purely to fulfil Wael's footballing passions? I understand the points you are making but it doesn't make a "cock-up" theory - it would be details of a catastrophic f*ck up that would cost the Al-Qadi's more than they could possibly hope to get back. If they're that stupid, then I'll happily get the knife and fork out for my hat.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 20:39:53 GMT
Look all that you have to remember is that 'the Al Qadis are very successful businessmen' (don't ask for examples of their success though) and 'Wael is a gashhead'....anything else is heresy. So what examples of their failures at the club are being shouted down as "heresy", aside from the UWE situation which we are currently discussing and you are free to join in with? I wonder where this 'successful businessmen' tag comes from ? it seems like Goebbels big lie, people say that they are successful but no one seems to be able to name their successful projects.
By 'heresy' I mean that you don't seem to be able to question them (on here) without their cheerleaders coming out and shouting people down,mind you the cheerleaders are a quiter the last couple of weeks..
UWE,it has taken 18 months for them to decide that its not a good deal for 'us' ( is 'us' Dwane Sports or Rovers ?).
I am in no doubt that the Memorial stadium will not be rebuilt, and I am very doubtful if the training ground will happen...but time will tell and if the worst happens I will still go to watch Rovers whatever division ( or league) they end up in....will Wael ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 20:40:02 GMT
I agree it's hard to get your ahead around which is why I was so reluctant to post my thoughts about "suspicions" a month or so ago. None of it makes any sense unless you subscribe to the "cock up" theory which says the whole deal was rushed through to satisfy Wael's football passions and that no detailed due diligence or financial projections were done. This probably only hit home when Mr Al-Qadi senior became acquainted with the full facts and realized the implications of taking on responsibility for huge trading losses and massive capital expenditure projects. Owning a football club is not bankers territory it's a "wild west" landscape where gamblers, like the Brighton Chairman, thrive and play with money they can afford to lose. Pessimist Gas gets frustrated with the hero worship of the owners and I get frustrated with the constant talk on the forums of Dwane Sports "selling" Rovers. It's as if fans expect there to be a war between "investors" outbidding each other to take on Rovers liabilities. "Do I hear £10 million ? .... £11 million from the gentleman in the dark glasses ?.. ., sorry sir I've got £12 million over there from the man wearing the straitjacket". All previous majority owners have had to write off substantial sums to relieve themselves of the financial liabilities which owning Rovers brings. I think the question we may have to ask is how much the Al-Qadi family are willing to write off in order to persuade someone to take Rovers off their hands. So Hani (who started an investment banking business from scratch, 30 years ago) didn't get his Son to bring a proper financial projection, including worst-case scenarios, for a multi-million pound project involving the purchase of a languishing football club, rebuilding a stadium and buying a training ground - or even feel the need to do it himself? Further to this, the deal was rushed through, purely to fulfil Wael's footballing passions? I understand the points you are making but it doesn't make a "cock-up" theory - it would be details of a catastrophic f*ck up that would cost the Al-Qadi's more than they could possibly hope to get back. If they're that stupid, then I'll happily get the knife and fork out for my hat. Hani is the elder brother of three, Wael being the youngest.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 20:41:48 GMT
I agree it's hard to get your ahead around which is why I was so reluctant to post my thoughts about "suspicions" a month or so ago. None of it makes any sense unless you subscribe to the "cock up" theory which says the whole deal was rushed through to satisfy Wael's football passions and that no detailed due diligence or financial projections were done. This probably only hit home when Mr Al-Qadi senior became acquainted with the full facts and realized the implications of taking on responsibility for huge trading losses and massive capital expenditure projects. Owning a football club is not bankers territory it's a "wild west" landscape where gamblers, like the Brighton Chairman, thrive and play with money they can afford to lose. Pessimist Gas gets frustrated with the hero worship of the owners and I get frustrated with the constant talk on the forums of Dwane Sports "selling" Rovers. It's as if fans expect there to be a war between "investors" outbidding each other to take on Rovers liabilities. "Do I hear £10 million ? .... £11 million from the gentleman in the dark glasses ?.. ., sorry sir I've got £12 million over there from the man wearing the straitjacket". All previous majority owners have had to write off substantial sums to relieve themselves of the financial liabilities which owning Rovers brings. I think the question we may have to ask is how much the Al-Qadi family are willing to write off in order to persuade someone to take Rovers off their hands. So Hani (who started an investment banking business from scratch, 30 years ago) didn't get his Son to bring a proper financial projection, including worst-case scenarios, for a multi-million pound project involving the purchase of a languishing football club, rebuilding a stadium and buying a training ground - or even feel the need to do it himself? Further to this, the deal was rushed through, purely to fulfil Wael's footballing passions? I understand the points you are making but it doesn't make a "cock-up" theory - it would be details of a catastrophic f*ck up that would cost the Al-Qadi's more than they could possibly hope to get back. If they're that stupid, then I'll happily get the knife and fork out for my hat. I thought that Hani was the brother of Wael not the father ?
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Post by tauntongas on Aug 23, 2017 20:56:56 GMT
So what examples of their failures at the club are being shouted down as "heresy", aside from the UWE situation which we are currently discussing and you are free to join in with? I wonder where this 'successful businessmen' tag comes from ? it seems like Goebbels big lie, people say that they are successful but no one seems to be able to name their successful projects.
By 'heresy' I mean that you don't seem to be able to question them (on here) without their cheerleaders coming out and shouting people down,mind you the cheerleaders are a quiter the last couple of weeks..
UWE,it has taken 18 months for them to decide that its not a good deal for 'us' ( is 'us' Dwane Sports or Rovers ?).
I am in no doubt that the Memorial stadium will not be rebuilt, and I am very doubtful if the training ground will happen...but time will tell and if the worst happens I will still go to watch Rovers whatever division ( or league) they end up in....will Wael ?
The succesful 'businessmen tag' comes from Abdulkhader setting up an investment bank in Jordan 30 years ago. So there are people that think positively of the Al-Qadi's on this forum, what are they preventing you from saying or discussing? If they want to 'cheerlead' just provide them with the facts to prove them wrong. I see you have provided no answers to my question: "What examples of their failures at the club are being shouted down?"
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Aug 23, 2017 21:07:43 GMT
If the UWE were to accidentally leak the final negotiating positions... that would kind of answer all the questions. I have a horrible feeling that Dwayne Sports / the Al-Qadi family bottled it because they either couldn't justify funding the Stadium themselves - or couldn't find out-side investment to help fund it, and share the risk. They are bankers. Bankers are cautious. Bankers deal with risk. I think Pink Floyd summed things up with astounding foresight many moons ago. "Money, it's a gas Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash New car, caviar, four star daydream Think I'll buy me a football team"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 21:11:55 GMT
I wonder where this 'successful businessmen' tag comes from ? it seems like Goebbels big lie, people say that they are successful but no one seems to be able to name their successful projects.
By 'heresy' I mean that you don't seem to be able to question them (on here) without their cheerleaders coming out and shouting people down,mind you the cheerleaders are a quiter the last couple of weeks..
UWE,it has taken 18 months for them to decide that its not a good deal for 'us' ( is 'us' Dwane Sports or Rovers ?).
I am in no doubt that the Memorial stadium will not be rebuilt, and I am very doubtful if the training ground will happen...but time will tell and if the worst happens I will still go to watch Rovers whatever division ( or league) they end up in....will Wael ?
The succesful 'businessmen tag' comes from Hani setting up an investment bank in Jordan 30 years ago. So there are people that think positively of the Al-Qadi's on this forum, what are they preventing you from saying or discussing? If they want to 'cheerlead' just provide them with the facts to prove them wrong. I see you have provided no answers to my question: "What examples of their failures at the club are being shouted down?"Hani, Samer and Wael, and their father Abdulkader - who set up the business from scratch more than 30 years ago. You keep mixing Hani up with their Father.
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Post by swissgas on Aug 23, 2017 21:12:43 GMT
I agree it's hard to get your ahead around which is why I was so reluctant to post my thoughts about "suspicions" a month or so ago. None of it makes any sense unless you subscribe to the "cock up" theory which says the whole deal was rushed through to satisfy Wael's football passions and that no detailed due diligence or financial projections were done. This probably only hit home when Mr Al-Qadi senior became acquainted with the full facts and realized the implications of taking on responsibility for huge trading losses and massive capital expenditure projects. Owning a football club is not bankers territory it's a "wild west" landscape where gamblers, like the Brighton Chairman, thrive and play with money they can afford to lose. Pessimist Gas gets frustrated with the hero worship of the owners and I get frustrated with the constant talk on the forums of Dwane Sports "selling" Rovers. It's as if fans expect there to be a war between "investors" outbidding each other to take on Rovers liabilities. "Do I hear £10 million ? .... £11 million from the gentleman in the dark glasses ?.. ., sorry sir I've got £12 million over there from the man wearing the straitjacket". All previous majority owners have had to write off substantial sums to relieve themselves of the financial liabilities which owning Rovers brings. I think the question we may have to ask is how much the Al-Qadi family are willing to write off in order to persuade someone to take Rovers off their hands. So Hani (who started an investment banking business from scratch, 30 years ago) didn't get his Son to bring a proper financial projection, including worst-case scenarios, for a multi-million pound project involving the purchase of a languishing football club, rebuilding a stadium and buying a training ground - or even feel the need to do it himself? Further to this, the deal was rushed through, purely to fulfil Wael's footballing passions? I understand the points you are making but it doesn't make a "cock-up" theory - it would be details of a catastrophic f*ck up that would cost the Al-Qadi's more than they could possibly hope to get back. If they're that stupid, then I'll happily get the knife and fork out for my hat. It was Mr Al-Qadi senior who started the bank and Hani, his son, is it's CEO. Wealthy and successful people do make mistakes and when a banking family is offered a deal seemingly backed entirely by highly desirable real estate, yes, I can imagine there would be a temptation to rush and cut corners on due diligence and financial projections. Wael said last year there were 10 other bidders so there was definitely some pressure to complete a transaction which he described as giving him "amazing value". In my experience the value of land often has a kind of hypnotic effect on people, especially bankers, and I think this apparent real estate coup may have been what caused the family's judgement to be clouded.
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Post by a more piratey game on Aug 23, 2017 21:13:45 GMT
10 other bidders! Blinking flip
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eppinggas
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Post by eppinggas on Aug 23, 2017 21:18:20 GMT
Yeah - one of them was me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 21:28:58 GMT
Yeah - one of them was me. So you are Captain Gas
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Post by tauntongas on Aug 23, 2017 21:29:55 GMT
So Hani (who started an investment banking business from scratch, 30 years ago) didn't get his Son to bring a proper financial projection, including worst-case scenarios, for a multi-million pound project involving the purchase of a languishing football club, rebuilding a stadium and buying a training ground - or even feel the need to do it himself? Further to this, the deal was rushed through, purely to fulfil Wael's footballing passions? I understand the points you are making but it doesn't make a "cock-up" theory - it would be details of a catastrophic f*ck up that would cost the Al-Qadi's more than they could possibly hope to get back. If they're that stupid, then I'll happily get the knife and fork out for my hat. It was Mr Al-Qadi senior who started the bank and Hani, his son, is it's CEO. Wealthy and successful people do make mistakes and when a banking family is offered a deal seemingly backed entirely by highly desirable real estate, yes, I can imagine there would be a temptation to rush and cut corners on due diligence and financial projections. Wael said last year there were 10 other bidders so there was definitely some pressure to complete a transaction which he described as giving him "amazing value". In my experience the value of land often has a kind of hypnotic effect on people, especially bankers, and I think this apparent real estate coup may have been what caused the family's judgement to be clouded. Sorry, I keep getting the names mixed up. Thanks to you and NQSS for correcting me. The point you make is a good one but this isn't anything like a routine deal or investment opportunity - running a football club as an owner is completely and utterly different from investing in land to have a skyscraper built on it. If they moved quickly and without proper preparation, then it only feeds the colossal cock-up narrative.
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Post by swissgas on Aug 23, 2017 21:45:33 GMT
10 other bidders! Blinking flip Yes, that was actually said. But, who could have told Wael there were 10 other bidders other than the vendors themselves ? And, as alluded to in my previous post, I don't think it would have been upward bidding in the conventional auction sense but more a contest where the owners played off prospective purchasers to see who would get them out of it at minimal loss to themselves and who would provide some prospect of taking the club forward. There may well have been people who would not pay anything to those who had overseen the failure but who would have been prepared to put substantial amounts of cash into the club to see through the UWE Stadium project.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 22:03:42 GMT
So Hani (who started an investment banking business from scratch, 30 years ago) didn't get his Son to bring a proper financial projection, including worst-case scenarios, for a multi-million pound project involving the purchase of a languishing football club, rebuilding a stadium and buying a training ground - or even feel the need to do it himself? Further to this, the deal was rushed through, purely to fulfil Wael's footballing passions? I understand the points you are making but it doesn't make a "cock-up" theory - it would be details of a catastrophic f*ck up that would cost the Al-Qadi's more than they could possibly hope to get back. If they're that stupid, then I'll happily get the knife and fork out for my hat. It was Mr Al-Qadi senior who started the bank and Hani, his son, is it's CEO. Wealthy and successful people do make mistakes and when a banking family is offered a deal seemingly backed entirely by highly desirable real estate, yes, I can imagine there would be a temptation to rush and cut corners on due diligence and financial projections. Wael said last year there were 10 other bidders so there was definitely some pressure to complete a transaction which he described as giving him "amazing value". In my experience the value of land often has a kind of hypnotic effect on people, especially bankers, and I think this apparent real estate coup may have been what caused the family's judgement to be clouded. Just a load of supposition from you. Might just as well be "snow white and the 7 dwarfs" in terms of reality. Wael was "hypnotised by the value of land" i mean bankers are especially vulnerable to this! are they? Got any facts? These guesswork fairy tales are a bit boring.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 22:07:49 GMT
Did not the Al Qadi family want to own the freehold for both the stadium and some other adjoining land in order to erect hotels etc? With this prospect dead, presumably there is no further business incentive for owning BRFC?
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Post by tauntongas on Aug 23, 2017 22:41:43 GMT
Did not the Al Qadi family want to own the freehold for both the stadium and some other adjoining land in order to erect hotels etc? With this prospect dead, presumably there is no further business incentive for owning BRFC? That is one thing that I think lends doubt to Swissgas' idea (granted it may not be his belief or a definite argument he is suggesting). Even if Wael's Beautiful Game desires were great, owning Rovers is a flimsy proposition solely off the back of the UWE deal. If they do sell the club or make a statement suggesting they might, then we know the land/UWE deal was the jewel in the crown to them.
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