irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 15, 2017 0:25:48 GMT
Short summary - Bloody disappointing. A bad day at the office in which nothing went our way but at the same time we looked leggy and lacking in our usual energy and bite. My analysis would be that, looking at the bench, this may have been a game too far after a tough run. I think we had a lot of players out there running on fumes and carrying knocks. Read on for gubbins.
Experience - I always like going to Bury. It is my favourite of the Greater Manchester grounds. Very eccentric stadium, with 4 stands set back from the pitch and at a slight angle to it. You never feel like the pitch (which is raised) is straight. Very peculiar effect. If they get a few in it can also generate a good atmosphere. Not tonight though - the citizens of Bury are not buying into their team this year and the home turnout was rubbish. There was a decent smattering of Gasheads for a Tuesday night game. When I set off on the tram I was full of optimism - a win here and you could start thinking another miracle run was on the cards. The sun was out and anything was possible. I walked up from the tram-stop, had a pint in the staff of life (proper football pub next to the ground) and I really did think we had a decent chance. Journey back was considerably more grumpy - miracles can't happen every year. I maintain that Bury is a good away venue though and, heck, I can look on the brightside - tonight went along way to ensuring I'll be back there next season.
First Half It was a very strange half of football. For most of the half there was a general lack of intensity or shape to the game. Neither team was playing well or imposing themselves on the game although generally they looked more threatening than we did. After about 20 minutes of largely aimless faffing there was an exchange of excellent last ditch tackles at either end - Lockyer's challenge on the always threatening Vaughan was superb. Then came the big moment with the sending off of Sinclair - and I have to say, hand on heart, from where I was it looked dodgy from Stuart's point of view. We were a long way away but the first one to me looked like a flat out dive and neither Sinclair nor anyone seemed to complain. So that would have marked the referees card for Sinclair. Which made the second one just plain stupid from his point of view. He may well have been touched (genuinely so far away in the corner that I couldn't tell) but there's also no dealt that he sold the foul - this is something he does (and before everyone gets all defensive and pious about it nearly all centre midfield players do this - it is part of their job) but to do it at that moment in front of their fans moments after the ref has booked you for what appeared to have been accepted as a blatant dive was just thick and unprofessional. So I don't have all that much sympathy - whether the ref would have had the guts to have given it if it had happened at our end I'm not sure but from where I was Sinclair could have few complaints. He gave the ref a decision to make and it was a dumb thing to do. Clearly not the consensus opinion among our fans but I honestly blame Sinclair far more than the ref - at best he played with fire and got burned. We then spent the rest of the half in a disorganised mess and I think the halftime whistle came as a relief because they clearly had a boost from the sending off. It could be a formation or tactics things but I have been very unimpressed with Bodin's contribution in away games for some time - someone like that should surely be more of an outlet, as much for the defensive safety valve as anything else. I'd have taken him off too - he was offering nothing.
Second Half DC normally gets tactical changes spot on but on this occasion I think he messed up. The changes didn't work - they made us more vulnerable and more disjointed and the story of the second half was really that Bury effectively dispatched us. We just didn't do what teams with 10 men normally do - ie. compress the game and force the opposition to go round the back of us. Instead the changes seemed to open us and the game up entirely to Bury's benefit - and to be fair they played well in the second half and we just weren't in it. I had the impression we were definitely scrambling around for answers. For a team already short in the middle of the park and short of physical hard working prescence losing Sinclair was pretty disastrous. We just didn't have the players to stop them in the middle of the park - our centre backs were exposed and we lost our cool really and our shape. It was not good. The penalty also looked nailed on to me too I'm afraid - I'm not going to be scapegoating for this one, I honestly thought he got the 2 big decisions right (or at least they were defensible - they certainly weren't terrible decisions). Moore, Bodin and James were all very ineffective. I don't think it works particularly well with those 3 on the field - none of them looked like creating very much. I felt we really missed Ollie Clarke, Mansell was overrun in midfield and looked his age somewhat and Lines did his best but I don't feel he had any help on the creative side. All in all a very disappointing evening and we got what our uncharacteristically flat performance deserved - the square root of naff all. I'd just add that Bury baffle me slightly - I've seen them 5 times this season and all 5 times they looked decent. They weren't brilliant tonight but they did a job on us second half. I know they were utter crap at the Mem earlier in the season but I've always thought they were handy and wonder what their midseason collapse was all about.
Player Ratings Lumley 6 - Didn't do anything wrong but was clearly part of the collective loss of cool that occurred during the second half. His normally reliable distribution let him down and you could see the situation getting to him. First time he's really been on the wrong end of a thumping with us and you could see it get to him. That may be a good thing in terms of attitude in a loanee but it's the first time I've seen him look less than unflappable - in the second half he looked distinctly flapped. Brown 5 - Had a poor game really. Seemed quite exposed on the left and was losing physical battles as well which was unusual. Spent an inordinate amount of time whining at the ref - cooler heads were needed from veteran players tonight and he didn't live up to that task. Lockyer 7 - My MOM. I thought he played really well, particularly in the second half when he often had to deal with a midfield that had pushed up leaving the defence exposed. He was almost playing a sweeper role at times and he looked very comfortable doing it. Without him snuffing out multiple dangerous balls over the top it could have been a lot worse. Sweeney 7 - Also played very well although didn't look comfortable in the set-up after half time. Was probably our best player in the first half though. Clarke 6 - A strange selection given the obvious lack of pace and legs that we already had in the side. I wonder if Leadbetter was not fully fit and that we are down to the bones a bit because otherwise his non-selection is hard to understand. Clarke did fine but I don't think he was what we needed. Clarke-Saltar 5 - Centre back comes on and you ship 3 goals afterwards doesn't suggest he had a particularly good time out there. Lines - 6. Worked hard but it wasn't really his type of game. The moment we went down to 10 he was always going to find it difficult to get the space to operate in. Ollie Clarke makes for a better partner for him than Mansell in that regard. Mansell - 5. Was on his backside when tackling a lot of the time which suggests to me that he was struggling to keep up with the pace of the game. Again, can't really fault him because I think he had a very difficult job but was definitely exposed at times. Sinclair - 3. Sorry I know Stuart will have his defenders and I like him very much myself but that was a very stupid sending off and it sold his teammates down the river in a game in which we already looked short of legs. He was the player we could least afford to lose from that game and he left it in an extremely dumb way. Deserve a bollocking from Lines and Mansell leaving them with an impossible workload. Bodin - 4 As mentioned above, game just seemed to pass him by. Yes, he always had a goal in him but you have to offer more in away games at this level than that - he's not a striker. I'd rather have had Lewis Haldane circa 2008 out there today (honestly) at least he would have consistently made himself available as a get out ball for the defenders. Moore-4. If someone could point out something he did after the first 20 minutes I would interested to hear. Just didn't contribute much in any sense. James - 5. Ran around a lot chasing lost causes, occasionally made clever runs across the line. There remain signs that he could be effective but he's just knocked off the ball so easily that he never seems to even get himself in positions where shooting opportunities may open up. He might be the best finisher we've ever had - but that's not worth a lot if defenders never give you the opportunity to show it and I just think he's too easy to defend against right now. Gaffney - 6. Standard Gaffney performance. Confused why he wasn't on from the start - again makes me wonder if players are being patched up. When he was on the ball stuck more up front but he looked no more likely to score than James and increasingly what disappoints me about him is that for someone who plays the way he does you'd think he'd be better at linking with other players than he is. Rather like all of our strikers at the moment - too predictable.
The ratings give the answer to why I think we struggled to impose ourselves on the game. Moore, Bodin and James should really not play together in the same team especially away from home. I really do wonder if what we saw tonight was a thin squad finally reaching it's limits. I felt there were a lot of tired legs out there. So promotion now looks very unlikely and to be honest always a very long shot (even before losing Taylor)...I was quite cheered up though when I looked at the Championship table on the way home!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 0:33:10 GMT
Good to get a report from someone who went to the game,i listened on the radio. Ive watched the highlights and in my opinion the ref got it right with both sinclairs yellow cards and make no mistake im a big fan of his. I went to oxford and bodin,james and moore worked a treat but clearly not tonight.
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Post by DudeLebowski on Mar 15, 2017 0:36:02 GMT
You'll want to check the penalty footage, it looked a certain dive from where I was stood and the highlights show him throwing himself to the floor the second he gets into the box. Add to that, the dive from their winger in the build up to the second goal. Which the ref and his assistant acknowledged but allowed to unpunished, leading them to score from the very next play, making it 2-0.
The referee looked every bit the novice he is tonight, a game riddled with inconsistent decisions from the off favouring the home side. Which is no longer a surprise, given I've just learned he is located just 30mins drive from Bury FC.
Awesome.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 0:42:33 GMT
You'll want to check the penalty footage, it looked a certain dive from where I was stood and the highlights show him throwing himself to the floor the second he gets into the box. Add to that, the dive from their winger in the build up to the second goal. Which the ref and his assistant acknowledged but allowed to unpunished, leading them to score from the very next play, making it 2-0. The referee looked every bit the novice he is tonight, a game riddled with inconsistent decisions from the off favouring the home side. Which is no longer a surprise, given I've just learned he is located just 30mins drive from Bury FC. Awesome. I meant to add that their penalty was every bit as much of a dive as sinclairs 2 and it sounded on the radio like the ref had a shocker.
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Post by DudeLebowski on Mar 15, 2017 0:46:23 GMT
You'll want to check the penalty footage, it looked a certain dive from where I was stood and the highlights show him throwing himself to the floor the second he gets into the box. Add to that, the dive from their winger in the build up to the second goal. Which the ref and his assistant acknowledged but allowed to unpunished, leading them to score from the very next play, making it 2-0. The referee looked every bit the novice he is tonight, a game riddled with inconsistent decisions from the off favouring the home side. Which is no longer a surprise, given I've just learned he is located just 30mins drive from Bury FC. Awesome. I meant to add that their penalty was every bit as much of a dive as sinclairs 2 and it sounded on the radio like the ref had a shocker. Indeed. It was clearly soft as s**t looking at it in realtime but the tv footage is something else. Horrendous decision.
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Post by a more piratey game on Mar 15, 2017 0:56:35 GMT
Mans is short of match fitness and reportedly ran his tabs off on Saturday. Losing Sincs must have been his worst nightmare for tonight
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 15, 2017 1:15:57 GMT
You'll want to check the penalty footage, it looked a certain dive from where I was stood and the highlights show him throwing himself to the floor the second he gets into the box. Add to that, the dive from their winger in the build up to the second goal. Which the ref and his assistant acknowledged but allowed to unpunished, leading them to score from the very next play, making it 2-0. The referee looked every bit the novice he is tonight, a game riddled with inconsistent decisions from the off favouring the home side. Which is no longer a surprise, given I've just learned he is located just 30mins drive from Bury FC. Awesome. I meant to add that their penalty was every bit as much of a dive as sinclairs 2 and it sounded on the radio like the ref had a shocker. Again, all I can say is that from where I was I thought the ref could be justified in making those decisions. That's not to say they were the right decisions necessarily - just that you can see why they were givem. My instant reaction when Sinclair went down for the first yellow was 'that doesn't look quite right' and for the second it was 'he was looking for that freekick', while with the penalty it was 's**t I hope he doesn't give that'. For the non-dive on the Bury player - that looked a poor decision to me and the foul that was not given on Sweeney just after Sinclair's sending off was a dreadful non-decision that could easily have cost us a goal. I also agree that his game management was as bad as any ref I've seen all season - it made for a very bitty game that would have been poor to watch for a neutral. Now I could very well be completely wrong on all 3 of the big decisions (we were miles away) but my point is that it didn't look like a series of horrendous calls to me. I could see why the ref gave them that way and it's bloody frustrating that they all went against us - but he hasn't plucked those decisions out of the sky or made a flat out howler-in all 3 cases our players actions and poor choices (selling fouls and diving in) gave the ref a clear decision to make which they needn't have done, even if the decision was an incorrect one.
So all the criticism may be fair and I don't think the referee had a very good game in general. But I've seen a heck of a lot worse and more importantly it's not the reason we lost. I'm pretty convinced that Bury had our number in the second half. Fixating on the ref having a crap game doesn't really make me feel any better about it anyway - because that's really not why we lost. We just didn't play very well - absolutely nowhere near what we are capable of and to the extent that the performance of the ref did influence us it was in the way several of our veteran players allowed a collective sense of grievance to get to them in a negative way (as opposed to being motivated by it). Our team lost its head in the second half. But ultimately I don't think any of that matters all that much either - I just felt that we didn't have the squad today to change games in our favour in the way we normally do and we were trying to bluff our way through a bit but ran out of luck. The bench we had says it all. It really was just a bad day at the office and part of that is the run of decisions going against you but we were as much the architects of our own downfall and the context we were playing in as anything the ref did tonight.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 1:56:26 GMT
I meant to add that their penalty was every bit as much of a dive as sinclairs 2 and it sounded on the radio like the ref had a shocker. Again, all I can say is that from where I was I thought the ref could be justified in making those decisions. That's not to say they were the right decisions necessarily - just that you can see why they were givem. My instant reaction when Sinclair went down for the first yellow was 'that doesn't look quite right' and for the second it was 'he was looking for that freekick', while with the penalty it was 's*** I hope he doesn't give that'. For the non-dive on the Bury player - that looked a poor decision to me and the foul that was not given on Sweeney just after Sinclair's sending off was a dreadful non-decision that could easily have cost us a goal. I also agree that his game management was as bad as any ref I've seen all season - it made for a very bitty game that would have been poor to watch for a neutral. Now I could very well be completely wrong on all 3 of the big decisions (we were miles away) but my point is that it didn't look like a series of horrendous calls to me. I could see why the ref gave them that way and it's bloody frustrating that they all went against us - but he hasn't plucked those decisions out of the sky or made a flat out howler-in all 3 cases our players actions and poor choices (selling fouls and diving in) gave the ref a clear decision to make which they needn't have done, even if the decision was an incorrect one.
So all the criticism may be fair and I don't think the referee had a very good game in general. But I've seen a heck of a lot worse and more importantly it's not the reason we lost. I'm pretty convinced that Bury had our number in the second half. Fixating on the ref having a crap game doesn't really make me feel any better about it anyway - because that's really not why we lost. We just didn't play very well - absolutely nowhere near what we are capable of and to the extent that the performance of the ref did influence us it was in the way several of our veteran players allowed a collective sense of grievance to get to them in a negative way (as opposed to being motivated by it). Our team lost its head in the second half. But ultimately I don't think any of that matters all that much either - I just felt that we didn't have the squad today to change games in our favour in the way we normally do and we were trying to bluff our way through a bit but ran out of luck. The bench we had says it all. It really was just a bad day at the office and part of that is the run of decisions going against you but we were as much the architects of our own downfall and the context we were playing in as anything the ref did tonight.
The bench is overloaded with defenders at the moment,especially with harrison injured,like you said a bad day at the office.
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Post by DudeLebowski on Mar 15, 2017 2:34:30 GMT
Two other horrendous calls that stick in the mind, are James Vaughn dragging Lockyer to the floor right on half time, picking himself up, surging towards the box & falling over right on the edge of it, when surrounded by yellow shirts. Then given the free kick.
& Gaffney getting kicked in the face from a high boot, that resulted in blood being drawn and requiring his nose being stitched back together on the touch line. Free kick, no card and not even a talking too for the Bury man?!
All we want as supporters is consistency & fairness for both sides. That young dude in black proved to be consistently s**te & ruined what was looking to be a closely fought contest.
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Igitur
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Post by Igitur on Mar 15, 2017 7:52:32 GMT
The thing is you have to ask: is Sincs the kind of player who would dive? Watching football you spot the kind of player who goes down too easily and then makes a meal of things, such as Ashley Young. Players spot a poor ref and try it on. A little touch and players go down making it 'obvious' that he had been 'fouled' even though he could have stayed on his feet. (Sometimes pundits argue these athletes are going too fast or are off-balance and went down naturally even though the contact was minimal.) But with some refs it can work against you. Sincs knows the game, but is he a cheat? For me I feel it is not in him - need to see the video though. Just have: www.skysports.com/football/news/11763/10802383/watch-bristol-rovers-midfielder-stuart-sinclair-sent-off-for-two-divesHe does appeal each time and Sincs would not argue with a sending off.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 8:00:10 GMT
I've only seen the 2nd yellow so far but have no arguments with the referee over that.
The penalty is unbelievable though in the context of a game where he's already taken a hard line on diving.
Edit: the jury is out on the first yellow. If there is any contact then its obscured from the camera. But Sinclair's reaction doesn't suggest he's too upset with the first one. Having been booked, to then go and do it again, I'm not sure what he was thinking.
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Peter Parker
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Post by Peter Parker on Mar 15, 2017 8:03:38 GMT
I've only seen the 2nd yellow so far but have no arguments with the referee over that. The penalty is unbelievable though in the context of a game where he's already taken a hard line on diving. Consistently inconsistent refereeing again init
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simonj
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Post by simonj on Mar 15, 2017 8:19:53 GMT
hmmm. He defo dived on the first one in my opinion. I agree with some of the comments that players do it all of the time. In the Premier it wouldn't have been a booking because of the position on the pitch, as midfielders do it often. The second one looked a bit like their penalty in all honesty, slightest of contact at pace.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 9:54:36 GMT
I didnt think much of the ref and Bury seemed to get more physical as the game went on,a lot of holding Gaffney as well. Bury keeper made a couple of saves and Rovers got corners but didnt do anything with them. First time at Bury for me and I was pleasantly surprised by the area and the ground,everyone we met was friendly and helpful,directing us to bar and chip shop. Fair play to the ones who do all the away trips especially the night games up north,the journey back was a pain with 3 lots of diversions on the motorway. That must have been Rovers smallest away following for a while ? I think that DC might bring in 2 or 3 players in the summer,I like Sweeney but I doubt that theres much chance of signing him,he was my man of the match for Rovers.
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gas53
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Post by gas53 on Mar 15, 2017 12:26:54 GMT
Thanks for that Irish, good to read a report on a match not able to attend. My thoughts on Sinclair's sending off are that he was extremely foolish and we run the risk of being called "fakers".He let us down badly and hope DC makes his feelings known towards him. There is no place for this at our, or any other club, and hope that other referees are quick to act upon this a lot more. I saw last night how Vardy went down as if he had been poleaxed by Nasri,ok Nasri was wrong but Vardy,in my opinion, made a complete meal of it and it spoilt what was a great match. I am a great fan of the Beard, but he must realise the stupidity of his actions which left his team a man short and DC having to reshuffle an already weakened team.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 12:42:50 GMT
Sinclair isn't really guilty of anything other than being stupid. As said above, all midfielder try to buy free kicks from time to time, Stuart Campbell had a particularly memorable 'ability' to get them and I often wondered if a referee might take issue with it one day.
Sinclair was beyond daft to try and buy a second soon after being booked the first time. If anything, there's a question mark over the first booking but the second one looks more deserved to me the more times I see it.
I'm sure he'll bounce back but last night was a bad one for him.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 15, 2017 14:25:15 GMT
Sinclair isn't really guilty of anything other than being stupid. As said above, all midfielder try to buy free kicks from time to time, Stuart Campbell had a particularly memorable 'ability' to get them and I often wondered if a referee might take issue with it one day. Sinclair was beyond daft to try and buy a second soon after being booked the first time. If anything, there's a question mark over the first booking but the second one looks more deserved to me the more times I see it. I'm sure he'll bounce back but last night was a bad one for him. I agree - it was just poor football more than anything else. Part of a centre midfielders role is to draw fouls and, like you say, Campbell was a master at this and I don't think he was ever booked for simulation. It's not cheating, it's just part of the physical contest but you have to do it - ie. go down under contact. The reason Campbell was so good at this was because he always drew the foul in close contact with a player so it makes it almost impossible to be accused of simulation because clearly there is some contact. What Sinclair did yesterday was go down while going away from a player and turn to look at the ref while doing it which just looks so much more theatrical and dicey. I don't think the TV gives a very clear view whether there was much contact in either case - the second one certainly looks harsher but has to be viewed in the context of the first, the referee has already marked him out as a 'diver' moments before. That's what makes it a dumb move. If you've booked a guy for diving and he does something similar again you are unlikely to give him the benefit of the doubt - that's not inconsistancy really, it's just part of the game. It was bad football from Sinclair and it's probably an aspect of the game he needs to work on (ie. when to sell the foul and when not to - it's a dark art but there's a skill to it and most centre midfield players can do this well and have done for over 100 years - if you look at footage of Billy Bremner he was an absolute master at it and no one would have dared accuse him of being a diver. Lines does it pretty well for example and did many times last night). The penalty looks like a terrible decision on the highlights.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 15:31:42 GMT
Regardless of whether the referee was poor or not if you look at the stas Bury had 3 shots on target and scored 3 goals Rovers had 7 on target and scored 0,that is why we lost,officials do not lose you the game,they may affect it but they do not score goals or miss them.
I recall years ago at Twerton a referee called Roger Fitzpatrick was refereeing a game and a Rovers player missed a sitter,the ground was quiet and everyone could hear the refs comment to the player saying that was rubbish my granny could have done better,just saying
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Mar 15, 2017 16:12:56 GMT
Regardless of whether the referee was poor or not if you look at the stas Bury had 3 shots on target and scored 3 goals Rovers had 7 on target and scored 0,that is why we lost,officials do not lose you the game,they may affect it but they do not score goals or miss them. I recall years ago at Twerton a referee called Roger Fitzpatrick was refereeing a game and a Rovers player missed a sitter,the ground was quiet and everyone could hear the refs comment to the player saying that was rubbish my granny could have done better,just saying Yeah - I have to say that '7 shots on target' thing I find a bit strange because that seems like quite a lot and I really don't remember them. I can only really remember their goalie making the 1 serious save and that was right at the end - maybe I blotted this out but 7 shots on targets suggests a decent attacking performance in which we created many chances but weren't clinical. That doesn't square with what I saw-which was a failure to generate any serious attacking threat at all. My point is that I agree that we have an issue with the forwards and that was a big difference between the sides (James Vaughan, who I always rate at this level did the business for Bury yesterday and was a constant threat) but for me it wasn't a case that we were wasteful as suggested by that stat - it was more that we never looked like carving out opportunities to score in the first place.
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Post by tanksfull on Mar 15, 2017 16:34:03 GMT
Sinclair isn't really guilty of anything other than being stupid. As said above, all midfielder try to buy free kicks from time to time, Stuart Campbell had a particularly memorable 'ability' to get them and I often wondered if a referee might take issue with it one day. Sinclair was beyond daft to try and buy a second soon after being booked the first time. If anything, there's a question mark over the first booking but the second one looks more deserved to me the more times I see it. I'm sure he'll bounce back but last night was a bad one for him. Daft maybe in the second incident but the Bury no. 3 certainly thought he had caught Sinclair in the first. He keeps running away without looking back and puts his arms up in an "oops I'm sorry" way. Accidental maybe but certainly not a dive.
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