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Post by matealotblue on Jun 25, 2016 12:40:20 GMT
Looking at the map of the vote I think that exposed the fracture in the UK. I am not so sure that this was a vote against the EU but more a reaction to globalisation and the impact of national Tax and Spend policies on a huge swathe of the population. To that end, age has no bearing. Interesting that those that have benefitted most from the above, voted remain by a substantial majority. London, along the M4 corridor and western home counties. Almost uniformly the rest of the country voted Brexit (I am excluding Scotland). Now the irony is that those that will come to power as a result of this are those that implemented or voted for policies that has had the negative impact on the social and economic well being of the very people who voted for Brexit. Did any of the leading people in the Leave Campaign agree and support the minimum wage legislation when it was first brought to the Statute Book? Now they are saying that wages will rise as a result of Brexit, how? Are they going to raise, uniformly the minimum wage, or are they hoping that by restricting the free movement of labour a shortage of labour will result resulting in wage inflation? Well that's what it will be, inflation, not real income rises born of increased productivity. Real incomes generally fall as a result of inflation. Will our education system become better? Too late, so many of our schools have been handed over to private companies, including valuable previously owned public assets, that it is probably irreversible. Now our kids are in faith schools, schools run by ideologues, and where the only measure of education is a string of multiple tests. Our Health System, which improved dramatically after 2002, is now floundering again, under the very leadership of the same people who led the Brexit Campaign. And people actually believed that these same people who said that they would divert the contributions to the EU to our Health System, the very people who cut nurses training capacity in 2010 and more recently cut Nursing Bursaries. The same people who complained about the level of immigration when as a result of these cuts to training and opportunity led to a significant amount of recruitment from abroad to fill the gaps in labour and skills. No this wasn't about the EU, it was about frustration felt by a huge swathe of the population and the EU was a convenient target, an hysteria fanned by people who have dark motives. Tis true that not all people who voted Brexit are racists, but you can be sure that all racists voted for Brexit. Philip Pullman made this interesting observation: When a clearly clever man like Michael Gove supports the nonsensical and stupid, then you can be sure he is after something. Sadly, I believe that the map of the voting pattern showed Turkeys voting for Christmas. Deceived by flag waving nationalism, a decrying of the academics and blaming "foreigners". Members of my family died in two wars to prevent this, 1930's anyone? It doesn't matter to me, I am 64 and financially settled. But my kids and grandkids? I feel sick. Disgusted. Very well put Oldie. Please also add Boris to the Gove scenario. Farage has been kept quite because his supporters were already on board and there was a chance he could have alienated others. There are/were many, many things within the EU that needed change (including direction) but all we have done with this vote is give the remainder a chance of getting a better EU with us left outside. Juncker has already said there is no more reforms to be had. So not sure how it would get better
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 12:40:38 GMT
i agreed with some of it and not other bits. i was pointing out his labels on some of the leave voters, i think its lazy Okay, I could give you lazy, but how on earth is it racist? not all people who voted Brexit are racists, but you can be sure that all racists voted for Brexit. oldie posted that, it irks me that he cant make a post without getting that word in, in a way its why the vote got through as since the blair years its been a favourite word to throw at anyone talking about immigration. well resentment built up and its come back to bite them on the ass
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Post by matealotblue on Jun 25, 2016 12:44:59 GMT
Okay, I could give you lazy, but how on earth is it racist? not all people who voted Brexit are racists, but you can be sure that all racists voted for Brexit. oldie posted that, it irks me that he cant make a post without getting that word in, in a way its why the vote got through as since the blair years its been a favourite word to throw at anyone talking about immigration. well resentment built up and its come back to bite them on the ass Gordon Brown gave away the game with his throw away comment not meant to be caught on record. Politicians need to listen to what people are saying or their bum will be well and tryly bitten. And it has been. Interesting that this vote may have been in large part swung by traditional Labour voters feeling disenfranchised.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,255
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Post by kingswood Polak on Jun 25, 2016 12:49:49 GMT
Christ,
I had enough of this as it is & then it turns up on here. God help me
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 25, 2016 12:51:27 GMT
How did you deduce that from these comments? This vote was not about the next five years, as a general election is, when we can change our mind. This vote was about the future generations with no chance of changing our mind for a considerable number of generations. That is what I read into Angas' comment on who should be voting. I am over 55 and, knowing that it is not my future I was voting for , I would be quite happy for over 16's to have voted and me be unable to. It is their future, not mine.But that ain't how a democratic system works though. Going down that path would be somewhat peculiar. One person one vote. People who have lived through life are as entitled to vote as those that haven't lived through life. Did I say it was? I was trying to explain my interpretation of what Angas was saying. When Scotland voted in their referendum over 16's were, quite rightly in my opinion, given the right to vote as they recognised that it was about the long term future (at that time) of Scotland. As it happens I think Scotland might change their mind very shortly. I have absolutely no doubt that younger people, as a result of their experiences of life (as you quite rightly refer to) feel much more "European" than older people do. We have now taken away from them the automatic opportunity of working and/or studying in 27 other countries.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 12:52:50 GMT
not all people who voted Brexit are racists, but you can be sure that all racists voted for Brexit. oldie posted that, it irks me that he cant make a post without getting that word in, in a way its why the vote got through as since the blair years its been a favourite word to throw at anyone talking about immigration. well resentment built up and its come back to bite them on the ass Gordon Brown gave away the game with his throw away comment not meant to be caught on record. Politicians need to listen to what people are saying or their bum will be well and tryly bitten. And it has been. Interesting that this vote may have been in large part swung by traditional Labour voters feeling disenfranchised. im a labour voter but i despair at the state of them
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 12:56:36 GMT
But that ain't how a democratic system works though. Going down that path would be somewhat peculiar. One person one vote. People who have lived through life are as entitled to vote as those that haven't lived through life. Did I say it was? I was trying to explain my interpretation of what Angas was saying. When Scotland voted in their referendum over 16's were, quite rightly in my opinion, given the right to vote as they recognised that it was about the long term future (at that time) of Scotland. As it happens I think Scotland might change their mind very shortly. I have absolutely no doubt that younger people, as a result of their experiences of life (as you quite rightly refer to) feel much more "European" than older people do. We have now taken away from them the automatic opportunity of working and/or studying in 27 other countries. ill say again , im 55 why shouldnt i vote for my present/future ? and lets be straight most 16 year olds have hardly any life experience , something us middle aged/old gets have
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Rex
Predictions League
Joined: June 2014
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Post by Rex on Jun 25, 2016 12:59:14 GMT
Okay, I could give you lazy, but how on earth is it racist? not all people who voted Brexit are racists, but you can be sure that all racists voted for Brexit. oldie posted that, it irks me that he cant make a post without getting that word in, in a way its why the vote got through as since the blair years its been a favourite word to throw at anyone talking about immigration. well resentment built up and its come back to bite them on the ass I'm still none the wiser. I do think 'racist' has become an insult to be thrown around, without people understanding what the word means, and I think you may well have fallen into the same trap!
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Post by CabbagePatchBlues on Jun 25, 2016 12:59:33 GMT
It could affect the UWE as research grants will undoubtedly be cut.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 13:00:47 GMT
Okay, I could give you lazy, but how on earth is it racist? not all people who voted Brexit are racists, but you can be sure that all racists voted for Brexit. oldie posted that, it irks me that he cant make a post without getting that word in, in a way its why the vote got through as since the blair years its been a favourite word to throw at anyone talking about immigration. well resentment built up and its come back to bite them on the ass Just ignore it then, Douglas Murray speaks brilliantly on the subject when he says that it's a classic tactic of the left, if you don't like what someone is saying just stick a label on them, try to exclude them from the debate and that makes sure that the debate is held on your terms. Happens in shouty meetings held in student halls the length and breadth of the country. We have a much bigger issue than Oldie's ideology, we are in economic and political limbo, and all the people courting our 'out' votes seem to have scuttled off and hidden under rocks somewhere?
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Post by laughinggas on Jun 25, 2016 13:03:15 GMT
With all the uncertainty about house prices and building companies share price struggling maybe more competitive tenders will be received!
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 13:03:34 GMT
not all people who voted Brexit are racists, but you can be sure that all racists voted for Brexit. oldie posted that, it irks me that he cant make a post without getting that word in, in a way its why the vote got through as since the blair years its been a favourite word to throw at anyone talking about immigration. well resentment built up and its come back to bite them on the ass I'm still none the wiser. I do think 'racist' has become an insult to be thrown around, without people understanding what the word means, and I think you may well have fallen into the same trap!
i give up count me out
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Angas
Joined: May 2014
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Post by Angas on Jun 25, 2016 13:04:20 GMT
But that ain't how a democratic system works though. Going down that path would be somewhat peculiar. One person one vote. People who have lived through life are as entitled to vote as those that haven't lived through life. Did I say it was? I was trying to explain my interpretation of what Angas was saying. When Scotland voted in their referendum over 16's were, quite rightly in my opinion, given the right to vote as they recognised that it was about the long term future (at that time) of Scotland. As it happens I think Scotland might change their mind very shortly. I have absolutely no doubt that younger people, as a result of their experiences of life (as you quite rightly refer to) feel much more "European" than older people do. We have now taken away from them the automatic opportunity of working and/or studying in 27 other countries. Your interpretation was pretty much spot on - except that I wouldn't have stopped old people voting. Apparently turn out was lower in areas with a larger young population. I wonder if those who didn't bother are now regretting it.
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 25, 2016 13:08:52 GMT
Just out iof interest, what were people voting for (rather than against)? Is it the Swiss / Norwegian model (stay in the single market but have no say in it) or the Albanian model (lone wolf, but then they want to join the EU)? As that's not defined, whatever we get probably won't suit either. The benefits so far seem to be that we got to shake a fist, and will get to define our own standards for bananas. The downside is myriad. That people vote for any position with a strap line 'don't listen to experts' and a promise of glitter and rainbows is depressing - especially given the people promising this haven't shown much interest in providing glitter and rainbows before now. I think they voted for border control. And a promise to spend the same saving made from EU contributions many times over; at least once on the NHS, once on education, once on building affordable housing for first time buyers, once on stables for unicorns that f&rt rainbows etc etc etc. It is all depressing, we should be part of the EU, we would be stronger together, however, it ain't gonna work as long as Brussels is run like a 1970s closed shop union. If it wasn't us, it was going to be France, and quite possible it will be France next anyway. The whole EU project is hanging by a thread. Maybe something can be salvaged from the ashes, but it's hard to see how? As for bananas, Google Ray Comfort banana man, you'll learn all you need to know. What border control? Illegals will still get in and we need people to come into the UK do the work which others won't do. We have the lowest unemployment (1.6m) for goodness only knows how long. We have 2m+ from outside of EU and 1.8m from inside the EU. If we are to prosper we need those who are able to have more children or we are in trouble but even that won't help in the short term.
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crater
Joined: June 2014
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Post by crater on Jun 25, 2016 13:19:32 GMT
I'm with Angas in being very disappointed with the outcome. However, 'Leave' won fair and square ( although I did have a wry smile to myself when Farrage admitted the £350m a week could be spent on the NHS was a 'mistake') and we have to accept the result, and hope that it all works out okay in the end. It was a stupid question to ask Farage though... He's not in Government and so clearly he has no power to decide how tax revenues are spent
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Post by tanksfull on Jun 25, 2016 13:24:24 GMT
Did I say it was? I was trying to explain my interpretation of what Angas was saying. When Scotland voted in their referendum over 16's were, quite rightly in my opinion, given the right to vote as they recognised that it was about the long term future (at that time) of Scotland. As it happens I think Scotland might change their mind very shortly. I have absolutely no doubt that younger people, as a result of their experiences of life (as you quite rightly refer to) feel much more "European" than older people do. We have now taken away from them the automatic opportunity of working and/or studying in 27 other countries. ill say again , im 55 why shouldnt i vote for my present/future ? and lets be straight most 16 year olds have hardly any life experience , something us middle aged/old gets have Did I say you shouldn't? If you think I did go have another look at what I said. From your comments there are clearly many young people and 16 year old who have far more understanding and life experience of "Europe" than you do. What does "Europe" and the EU mean to you? The things you have read about in the paper? Have you found out what actually happens in the EU? Or are you going by the headlines? Does Erasmus mean anything to you?
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womble
Arthur Cartlidge
Joined: May 2014
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Post by womble on Jun 25, 2016 13:35:34 GMT
I'm with Angas in being very disappointed with the outcome. However, 'Leave' won fair and square ( although I did have a wry smile to myself when Farrage admitted the £350m a week could be spent on the NHS was a 'mistake') and we have to accept the result, and hope that it all works out okay in the end. It was a stupid question to ask Farage though... He's not in Government and so clearly he has no power to decide how tax revenues are spent The reason it was a 'mistake' is that there was never going to be £350m a week to spend in the first place. Britain's rebate took the figure down to £286m, and then you have to subtract subsidies paid to UK farmers and the assorted EU grants for various projects, some of which are received in Bristol. Not that the Leave campaign were not perfectly well aware of that in the first place.
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Post by CountyGroundHotel on Jun 25, 2016 13:37:13 GMT
Looking at the map of the vote I think that exposed the fracture in the UK. I am not so sure that this was a vote against the EU but more a reaction to globalisation and the impact of national Tax and Spend policies on a huge swathe of the population. To that end, age has no bearing. Interesting that those that have benefitted most from the above, voted remain by a substantial majority. London, along the M4 corridor and western home counties. Almost uniformly the rest of the country voted Brexit (I am excluding Scotland). Now the irony is that those that will come to power as a result of this are those that implemented or voted for policies that has had the negative impact on the social and economic well being of the very people who voted for Brexit. Did any of the leading people in the Leave Campaign agree and support the minimum wage legislation when it was first brought to the Statute Book? Now they are saying that wages will rise as a result of Brexit, how? Are they going to raise, uniformly the minimum wage, or are they hoping that by restricting the free movement of labour a shortage of labour will result resulting in wage inflation? Well that's what it will be, inflation, not real income rises born of increased productivity. Real incomes generally fall as a result of inflation. Will our education system become better? Too late, so many of our schools have been handed over to private companies, including valuable previously owned public assets, that it is probably irreversible. Now our kids are in faith schools, schools run by ideologues, and where the only measure of education is a string of multiple tests. Our Health System, which improved dramatically after 2002, is now floundering again, under the very leadership of the same people who led the Brexit Campaign. And people actually believed that these same people who said that they would divert the contributions to the EU to our Health System, the very people who cut nurses training capacity in 2010 and more recently cut Nursing Bursaries. The same people who complained about the level of immigration when as a result of these cuts to training and opportunity led to a significant amount of recruitment from abroad to fill the gaps in labour and skills. No this wasn't about the EU, it was about frustration felt by a huge swathe of the population and the EU was a convenient target, an hysteria fanned by people who have dark motives. Tis true that not all people who voted Brexit are racists, but you can be sure that all racists voted for Brexit. Philip Pullman made this interesting observation: When a clearly clever man like Michael Gove supports the nonsensical and stupid, then you can be sure he is after something. Sadly, I believe that the map of the voting pattern showed Turkeys voting for Christmas. Deceived by flag waving nationalism, a decrying of the academics and blaming "foreigners". Members of my family died in two wars to prevent this, 1930's anyone? It doesn't matter to me, I am 64 and financially settled. But my kids and grandkids? I feel sick. Disgusted. Whilst I don't agree with your view, at least you put it across in a clear and passionate manner. What I would say though is this. Why have the EU called a meeting of the other leaders today? It's because they know that there is a danger of others following our lead. That therefore means that whatever issues people like you and me may have, it is clearly an issue for other countries as well. It seems the Dutch are now considering a referendum, as are the Danes. Whatever may may be right or wrong about our political system, at least we can now get rid of them. Is this the meeting of the 'original' 6 members or the other meeting where the 'original' 6 members are going to allow the other 21 to attend? Europe is as fractured as Oldie seems to believe the UK is. We are in my view well rid of a corrupt failing organisation that is failing to keep pace with many other parts of the world. Of course we have also learn't that racism is bad but agism is good. Like Oldie I'm also financially secure but will probably lose financially over my life because of this decision a prospect I was fully aware when I voted Leave. But I voted for the future of this country over my own personal interests.
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Post by Richard on Jun 25, 2016 13:39:16 GMT
Just out iof interest, what were people voting for (rather than against)? Is it the Swiss / Norwegian model (stay in the single market but have no say in it) or the Albanian model (lone wolf, but then they want to join the EU)? As that's not defined, whatever we get probably won't suit either. The benefits so far seem to be that we got to shake a fist, and will get to define our own standards for bananas. The downside is myriad. That people vote for any position with a strap line 'don't listen to experts' and a promise of glitter and rainbows is depressing - especially given the people promising this haven't shown much interest in providing glitter and rainbows before now. I think they voted for border control. And a promise to spend the same saving made from EU contributions many times over; at least once on the NHS, once on education, once on building affordable housing for first time buyers, once on stables for unicorns that f&rt rainbows etc etc etc. It is all depressing, we should be part of the EU, we would be stronger together, however, it ain't gonna work as long as Brussels is run like a 1970s closed shop union. If it wasn't us, it was going to be France, and quite possible it will be France next anyway. The whole EU project is hanging by a thread. Maybe something can be salvaged from the ashes, but it's hard to see how? As for bananas, Google Ray Comfort banana man, you'll learn all you need to know. Completely agree with this. Too many have voted against things without really considering what the alternatives are.
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Deleted
Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2016 13:41:07 GMT
ill say again , im 55 why shouldnt i vote for my present/future ? and lets be straight most 16 year olds have hardly any life experience , something us middle aged/old gets have Did I say you shouldn't? If you think I did go have another look at what I said. From your comments there are clearly many young people and 16 year old who have far more understanding and life experience of "Europe" than you do. What does "Europe" and the EU mean to you? The things you have read about in the paper? Have you found out what actually happens in the EU? Or are you going by the headlines? Does Erasmus mean anything to you? judge me on my comments if you like i dont paticularly care either way. just googled erasmus it seems an exchange programme, good on them
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