brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
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Post by brizzle on Feb 16, 2015 16:33:57 GMT
. . . and there are others who couldn't get a club for love nor money. I'm thinking here of Bobby Moore, who it seemed to me had a perfect pedigree, temperament and playing background to do a decent job as a manager. He played well over 500 games for West Ham winning the FA Cup, the Cup Winners Cup and was named Footballer Of The Year. As an England international he won 108 caps (90 as captain), and of course he was captain of the 1966 World Cup team. Yet despite all of that he couldn't get a job as a Football League manager, well not until Southend United appointed him, but I have always believed that this was too little too late. It's true that his playing performances couldn't guarantee success as a manager, but I've always thought that he was worth a punt by someone. I read that Bobby Moore didn't really want to be a manager; that he could make more money doing other things and that he only really took the manager's jobs that he did as a favour to certain people who were connected with those clubs (I mean he managed a few games in non-league which is definitely something he didn't have to do). I'm not sure he really had any ambition in that direction or he could have had the West Ham job any time he wanted it. It's interesting that of the '66 team only Jack Charlton really had much of a run as a manager. Most of them had brief goes but none of them were really successful - Hurst and Bobby Charlton were very notable failures in the dugout. Even Jack Charlton had something of a patchy management career though - with Ireland he was a huge success but as a club manager his record was very ropey. I don't think they needed to be football managers - after all it wasn't a particularly well paid job for most of that period and they could just dine of the opportunities that the World Cup win gave them. I wouldn't disagree for the sake of it, but I have often read (and once saw a documentary on Bobby Moore), that clearly stated that he would have liked to manage a Football League club, and was disappointed and bemused as to why he was never offered a worthwhile position. From The Observer . . .
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Feb 16, 2015 16:45:35 GMT
I read that Bobby Moore didn't really want to be a manager; that he could make more money doing other things and that he only really took the manager's jobs that he did as a favour to certain people who were connected with those clubs (I mean he managed a few games in non-league which is definitely something he didn't have to do). I'm not sure he really had any ambition in that direction or he could have had the West Ham job any time he wanted it. It's interesting that of the '66 team only Jack Charlton really had much of a run as a manager. Most of them had brief goes but none of them were really successful - Hurst and Bobby Charlton were very notable failures in the dugout. Even Jack Charlton had something of a patchy management career though - with Ireland he was a huge success but as a club manager his record was very ropey. I don't think they needed to be football managers - after all it wasn't a particularly well paid job for most of that period and they could just dine of the opportunities that the World Cup win gave them. I wouldn't disagree for the sake of it, but I have often read (and once saw a documentary on Bobby Moore), that clearly stated that he would have liked to manage a Football League club, and was disappointed and bemused as to why he was never offered a worthwhile position. From The Observer . . . The stuff I read came from Hunter Davies - the longstanding football writer for 45 years who was well in with the London football scene around the World Cup winner. If that's true though you can't doubt Elton's judgement there really can you?! Taylor made Watford football club a force. It's hard to believe that Moore was ostracised though because he was very much the football establishment's man and he was also very much the media's man. He wasn't Brian Clough; a figure who put as many backs up as he charmed. He was the embodiment of what the FA wanted a footballer to look like. I have heard (though this is more rumour from people I know who support West Ham) that Moore's clean cut reputation wasn't quite all it was made out to be and that he was mixed up with some extremely unpleasant individuals; they said that's why West Ham didn't immediately offer him a role for life etc. How much truth there is in that I wouldn't like to say but it is true that something doesn't quite add up about Bobby Moore's post-playing career.
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
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Post by brizzle on Feb 16, 2015 16:59:37 GMT
It's interesting that of the '66 team only Jack Charlton really had much of a run as a manager. Most of them had brief goes but none of them were really successful - Hurst and Bobby Charlton were very notable failures in the dugout. Even Jack Charlton had something of a patchy management career though - with Ireland he was a huge success but as a club manager his record was very ropey. I don't think they needed to be football managers - after all it wasn't a particularly well paid job for most of that period and they could just dine of the opportunities that the World Cup win gave them. Alan Ball also had a good stab at management, Blackpool, Portsmouth, Stoke City, Exeter City, Southampton and Manchester City. Not with any great success I grant you, but he did manage at the higher levels. I often wonder how successful he (and us) would have been had he been appointed manager of BRFC. If my memory serves me well (it doesn't always), when Bobby Gould decided that his future lay elsewhere, Alan Ball was placed in temporary charge of team matters. He said publicly that he wanted the job, but was invited to apply for the vacancy by the Board. I don't believe that he did apply and left soon after.
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aghast
David Williams
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Post by aghast on Feb 16, 2015 22:33:26 GMT
I thought Roy Keane might make a good manager. Obnoxious, driven, intolerant but desperate for success.
He was crap.
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Post by manchestergas on Feb 16, 2015 23:26:08 GMT
The implication from Harry Redknapp's biography is that Moore was not the 'establishment man' and was treated badly by the establishment. RedKnapp and Trevor Brooking seem to had some issues and book implies Brooking was much better treated than Moore.
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Feb 18, 2015 13:33:56 GMT
It's interesting that of the '66 team only Jack Charlton really had much of a run as a manager. Most of them had brief goes but none of them were really successful - Hurst and Bobby Charlton were very notable failures in the dugout. Even Jack Charlton had something of a patchy management career though - with Ireland he was a huge success but as a club manager his record was very ropey. I don't think they needed to be football managers - after all it wasn't a particularly well paid job for most of that period and they could just dine of the opportunities that the World Cup win gave them. Alan Ball also had a good stab at management, Blackpool, Portsmouth, Stoke City, Exeter City, Southampton and Manchester City. Not with any great success I grant you, but he did manage at the higher levels. I often wonder how successful he (and us) would have been had he been appointed manager of BRFC. If my memory serves me well (it doesn't always), when Bobby Gould decided that his future lay elsewhere, Alan Ball was placed in temporary charge of team matters. He said publicly that he wanted the job, but was invited to apply for the vacancy by the Board. I don't believe that he did apply and left soon after. Damn - Ball slipped my mind there. He probably had a better crack at it than Big Jack to be fair and it's a bit of a shame that his reputation as a manager is likely to be forever tainted by the miscalculation in the relegation season with Man City when he had them play for a draw in the last 15 minutes when they needed to win. Again though it's slightly strange he never managed to get a looking in at a more fashionable club. A legend at Everton and Arsenal and never had a look in with either. It's a good 'what if' with Rovers.
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Post by gasheadnaboo on Feb 18, 2015 13:47:06 GMT
If he did then he wasn't listening. Well, it would appear that both Higgs and Baker barking mad: But Baker is positive what happened at Rovers was an isolated problem and has had reassurance from Bristol chairman Nick Higgs. “It’s interesting - what happened at Rovers - but it just seems to be graveyard for managers,” he said. “I had a good chat with Nick Higgs and while it was difficult for Paul there, he was very complimentary about him and some of the signings he bought to Rovers who have done very well for the club. “Having thought I would get a negative response, I didn’t and I understood more of the reasons why it didn't work out down there. “He's a young manager learning all the time, in the same way any other manager would, and he’s still got more learning to do. “But he comes here having already worked with Shaun North so you have that continuity and that will help speed up the process. Who in their right mind would follow Higgs' advice on employing managers? Cheltenham brought it on themselves by not doing the exact opposite of what Higgs says! Didn't take Shaun North very long to recognise when to jump ship did it.
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brizzle
Lindsay Parsons
No Buy . . . No Sell!
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,293
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Post by brizzle on Feb 18, 2015 14:02:29 GMT
Alan Ball also had a good stab at management, Blackpool, Portsmouth, Stoke City, Exeter City, Southampton and Manchester City. Not with any great success I grant you, but he did manage at the higher levels. I often wonder how successful he (and us) would have been had he been appointed manager of BRFC. If my memory serves me well (it doesn't always), when Bobby Gould decided that his future lay elsewhere, Alan Ball was placed in temporary charge of team matters. He said publicly that he wanted the job, but was invited to apply for the vacancy by the Board. I don't believe that he did apply and left soon after. Damn - Ball slipped my mind there. He probably had a better crack at it than Big Jack to be fair and it's a bit of a shame that his reputation as a manager is likely to be forever tainted by the miscalculation in the relegation season with Man City when he had them play for a draw in the last 15 minutes when they needed to win. Again though it's slightly strange he never managed to get a looking in at a more fashionable club. A legend at Everton and Arsenal and never had a look in with either. It's a good 'what if' with Rovers. It really is a good ''what if,'' because he really seemed to be prepared to take the job (if it were offered to him), but was not prepared to apply for it. Now to a degree that's understandable, but equally you could say that if he was genuinely committed he would have had no problem in putting pen to paper. If a deal between the two parties could have been achieved, then theoretically he would have been a good appointment as he seemed to have bags of energy and ideas for the job. If there was a problem anywhere it was on the side of the club. In any event Alan Ball departed to pastures new, and BRFC appointed David Williams to the post as player/manager, which speaks volumes as David was a novice in management at that time. Still he did well in the job, and you could always ask ''what if'' about him of course, as he went on to have a good career in the game after leaving us. We seem to be littered with ''what if's'' in recent years
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irishrover
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Post by irishrover on Feb 18, 2015 17:11:49 GMT
Damn - Ball slipped my mind there. He probably had a better crack at it than Big Jack to be fair and it's a bit of a shame that his reputation as a manager is likely to be forever tainted by the miscalculation in the relegation season with Man City when he had them play for a draw in the last 15 minutes when they needed to win. Again though it's slightly strange he never managed to get a looking in at a more fashionable club. A legend at Everton and Arsenal and never had a look in with either. It's a good 'what if' with Rovers. It really is a good ''what if,'' because he really seemed to be prepared to take the job (if it were offered to him), but was not prepared to apply for it. Now to a degree that's understandable, but equally you could say that if he was genuinely committed he would have had no problem in putting pen to paper. If a deal between the two parties could have been achieved, then theoretically he would have been a good appointment as he seemed to have bags of energy and ideas for the job. If there was a problem anywhere it was on the side of the club. In any event Alan Ball departed to pastures new, and BRFC appointed David Williams to the post as player/manager, which speaks volumes as David was a novice in management at that time. Still he did well in the job, and you could always ask ''what if'' about him of course, as he went on to have a good career in the game after leaving us. We seem to be littered with ''what if's'' in recent years Actually David Williams may be the great 'what if' in Bristol Rovers history given what he went on to achieve. I knew a bit about the links between Ball and managing Rovers but the way you frame it suggests that he expected to be given it off the back of the temporary role and didn't feel he should have to apply. I can understand that I think - if you'd already done the job and they couldn't make up their mind whether they wanted you then you'd probably think twice about whether you were really wanted particularly as he was unlikely to struggle to find an alternative position. There have been a lot of 'what ifs' with Rovers recently but they've generally of the 'which of these poor alternatives would have been least bad' variety. I think it's fair to say anything involving Alan Ball is on a different level. While he's not exactly well regarded by Man City fans he does seem to be one of the few people in football who appears to have been regarded as an all round nice guy.
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