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Post by swissgas on Feb 27, 2022 20:57:08 GMT
Yes, that's what it looks like Bas. But the key issue, whether it's players wages or any other financial expenditure, is about Rovers' ability to get value for money. We clearly don't have that ability. Lutons test is can they stay mid to play off challengers for a few seasons a la Brentford. Luton may well lose a few good players (wages),replacing them successfully and remaining a respected 2nd tier fc is a big challenge. I wonder how Rovers financial season will look now and 2022/23,especiallyif we win promotion. Apparently Wael can deal with our losses,so does it matter so much? It's the lack of stadium that worries me. Edit. Do Luton have a small squad? Those Salary Sports figures are based on a first team squad of 30 for both City and Luton. We know the 20/21 accounts are going to be bad because we've been told that often enough. But I doubt anyone will want to compare our performance during the pandemic with other clubs because it will highlight our relative inefficiency. An unchanged playing budget for 21/22, high staff turnover and possible net increased personnel spend coupled with lower central funding mean it's likely trading losses will remain in the £3 million range. And with JB's way of operating I can't see them being lower in 22/23 whichever league we are in. Wael was blessed with money from the day he was born so, without being disrespectful to him, we shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have the ability to extract value for money because he's never had to do it. We may bring ourselves to believe that he has unlimited resources to deal with our losses so it doesn't really matter how much we lose but does that mean we are happy to continue living with waste and inefficiency ? If it does then I can't see how we can compete on the field because more efficient clubs will always out perform us. And I can't see how any potential partners will want to join us in a stadium project because their business models will depend on maximising efficiency.
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Feb 27, 2022 20:59:11 GMT
Lutons test is can they stay mid to play off challengers for a few seasons a la Brentford. Luton may well lose a few good players (wages),replacing them successfully and remaining a respected 2nd tier fc is a big challenge. I wonder how Rovers financial season will look now and 2022/23,especiallyif we win promotion. Apparently Wael can deal with our losses,so does it matter so much? It's the lack of stadium that worries me. Edit. Do Luton have a small squad? Those Salary Sports figures are based on a first team squad of 30 for both City and Luton. We know the 20/21 accounts are going to be bad because we've been told that often enough. But I doubt anyone will want to compare our performance during the pandemic with other clubs because it will highlight our relative inefficiency. An unchanged playing budget for 21/22, high staff turnover and possible net increased personnel spend coupled with lower central funding mean it's likely trading losses will remain in the £3 million range. And with JB's way of operating I can't see them being lower in 22/23 whichever league we are in. Wael was blessed with money from the day he was born so, without being disrespectful to him, we shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have the ability to extract value for money because he's never had to do it. We may bring ourselves to believe that he has unlimited resources to deal with our losses so it doesn't really matter how much we lose but does that mean we are happy to continue living with waste and inefficiency ? If it does then I can't see how we can compete on the field because more efficient clubs will always out perform us. And I can't see how any potential partners will want to join us in a stadium project because their business models will depend on maximising efficiency.
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Feb 27, 2022 21:14:29 GMT
You obviously did not read the section of his letter on sustainability, or wait for it, because of his background in banking, he is not half as clever as you.
If only we could have you as the Owner and the spectre of financial propriety, business acumen and football vision. When you walked away from Twerton in the 80s, Geoff whispered to us "we now have to rely on luck and chemistry."
I know that you just want to help, though, even now....
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Post by swissgas on Feb 27, 2022 21:30:17 GMT
You obviously did not read the section of his letter on sustainability, or wait for it, because of his background in banking, he is not half as clever as you. If only we could have you as the Owner and the spectre of financial propriety, business acumen and football vision. When you walked away from Twerton in the 80s, Geoff whispered to us "we now have to rely on luck and chemistry." I know that you just want to help, though, even now.... I thought we were all being tactful and not mentioning the letter ?
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baselswh
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 4,589
Member is Online
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Post by baselswh on Feb 27, 2022 21:52:06 GMT
Those Salary Sports figures are based on a first team squad of 30 for both City and Luton. We know the 20/21 accounts are going to be bad because we've been told that often enough. But I doubt anyone will want to compare our performance during the pandemic with other clubs because it will highlight our relative inefficiency. An unchanged playing budget for 21/22, high staff turnover and possible net increased personnel spend coupled with lower central funding mean it's likely trading losses will remain in the £3 million range. And with JB's way of operating I can't see them being lower in 22/23 whichever league we are in. Wael was blessed with money from the day he was born so, without being disrespectful to him, we shouldn't be surprised if he doesn't have the ability to extract value for money because he's never had to do it. We may bring ourselves to believe that he has unlimited resources to deal with our losses so it doesn't really matter how much we lose but does that mean we are happy to continue living with waste and inefficiency ? If it does then I can't see how we can compete on the field because more efficient clubs will always out perform us. And I can't see how any potential partners will want to join us in a stadium project because their business models will depend on maximising efficiency. Wael must have many successful business dealings.I don't believe things at Rovers are ran so badly that others involved in this fruit market scheme won't want to deal with Wael and Rovers.A football club is an awkward bugger financially. I imagine Rovers might be the oldest business in the fruit market scheme. I am,like most Gasheads frustrated by the wait.It's been decades for goodnessake.
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Post by swissgas on Feb 28, 2022 0:24:58 GMT
Wael must have many successful business dealings.I don't believe things at Rovers are ran so badly that others involved in this fruit market scheme won't want to deal with Wael and Rovers.A football club is an awkward bugger financially. I imagine Rovers might be the oldest business in the fruit market scheme. I am,like most Gasheads frustrated by the wait.It's been decades for goodnessake. I respect your opinion on this Bas and know you are reflecting a majority view of Wael's stewardship. Most Gasheads believe he must have enjoyed a successful career at the bank and our financial performance is not that much out of line with other clubs. They are frustrated by the lack of progress with the stadium but still give Wael the benefit of the doubt and believe he will come good on that promise eventually. My views are different but I do try to explain my thinking and give examples where appropriate. And although relying on hope isn't the preferred option there are times when little else is left so, if we get to that point, you can be sure I'll be hoping with you.
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warehamgas
Predictions League
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 3,450
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Post by warehamgas on Feb 28, 2022 15:40:48 GMT
The better we are on the field of play,the more our stadium or lack of modern stadium becomes an issue. Luton Town were been mentioned by Ice,how come they're doing well in the 2nd tier? What's the Hatters recipe? An unpopular question to pose on a Rovers forum Bas because the answer is that our owner has an inefficient business recipe but Luton Town have an efficient one. In 2018/19 Luton and Rovers were both in League 1 and this is how the businesses fared. Luton Town Turnover £ 7.6 million Spending £ 8.6 million Losses £ 1.0 million League Position 1st Rovers Turnover £ 6.3 million Spending £ 9.7 million Losses £ 3.4 million League Position 15th Lack of financial discipline breeds inefficiency right across the business and that is why Rovers have been unable to compete with Luton Town. The efficiency of Luton's business model is further confirmed by this seasons Championship performance if the Salary Sports figures are correct. Luton Town playing budget £ 6 million League position 6th Bristol City playing budget £ 12 million League position 16th Not to mention the confidence Luton Town have in their business model which allows them to be transparent with stakeholders when it comes to revealing new stadium plans. Anecdotally and without any close inspection of the figures, watching Quest over the weekend, one of the EFL pundits on there George Elek, said that Luton FC have the lowest budget in the Championship. By far he said. So not only are they doing better than BCFC they are getting better value for money than any other club in that division. UTG!
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icegas
Joined: September 2014
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Post by icegas on Feb 28, 2022 17:55:58 GMT
An unpopular question to pose on a Rovers forum Bas because the answer is that our owner has an inefficient business recipe but Luton Town have an efficient one. In 2018/19 Luton and Rovers were both in League 1 and this is how the businesses fared. Luton Town Turnover £ 7.6 million Spending £ 8.6 million Losses £ 1.0 million League Position 1st Rovers Turnover £ 6.3 million Spending £ 9.7 million Losses £ 3.4 million League Position 15th Lack of financial discipline breeds inefficiency right across the business and that is why Rovers have been unable to compete with Luton Town. The efficiency of Luton's business model is further confirmed by this seasons Championship performance if the Salary Sports figures are correct. Luton Town playing budget £ 6 million League position 6th Bristol City playing budget £ 12 million League position 16th Not to mention the confidence Luton Town have in their business model which allows them to be transparent with stakeholders when it comes to revealing new stadium plans. Anecdotally and without any close inspection of the figures, watching Quest over the weekend, one of the EFL pundits on there George Elek, said that Luton FC have the lowest budget in the Championship. By far he said. So not only are they doing better than BCFC they are getting better value for money than any other club in that division. UTG! [br If that's the case then I would guess they are paying pretty much the same level, maybe slightly more than we were last season, and not massively more than we do currently in comparison to our levels.
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Post by richmace on Mar 1, 2022 8:53:06 GMT
I don't pretend to understand how best to run a business or a football club, but the takeaway for me reading this thread is that if Luton can become a Championship club then it is also possible for Bristol Rovers to do the same. If we can follow the Luton model and do it in a "sustainable" way then I would suggest this is the way to go.
Quite how we get there I do not know.
I would not be comfortable with a "Championship or bust" approach. We as a club do need a period in the Championship if we are to attract fans away from the dark side. I have said many times on here that I believe this is also achievable within BS7. I would like to see us remain in control of our prime asset (i.e. 100% own the land and the stadium), upgrade the Mem and build for the Championship. If it takes 10 years to get there, then so be it. We should have a plan and communicate that to the fanbase.
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icegas
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Post by icegas on Mar 1, 2022 10:53:59 GMT
I don't pretend to understand how best to run a business or a football club, but the takeaway for me reading this thread is that if Luton can become a Championship club then it is also possible for Bristol Rovers to do the same. If we can follow the Luton model and do it in a "sustainable" way then I would suggest this is the way to go. Quite how we get there I do not know. I would not be comfortable with a "Championship or bust" approach. We as a club do need a period in the Championship if we are to attract fans away from the dark side. I have said many times on here that I believe this is also achievable within BS7. I would like to see us remain in control of our prime asset (i.e. 100% own the land and the stadium), upgrade the Mem and build for the Championship. If it takes 10 years to get there, then so be it. We should have a plan and communicate that to the fanbase. I 100% agree we could do a Brentford or Luton at the mem.Both were the Same or smaller sides clubs as us while at our level, but got to a decent championship level in grounds very similar to the mems standard today.Ive always thought it was a cop out that we couldn't become a championship club due to the mem as both these clubs are proving that wrong. Some people seem to just like us still being thought of as poor old "ragbag Bristol Rovers." We are a club from the 6th/7th largest city in the country, have some ambition.
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vaughan
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,237
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Post by vaughan on Mar 1, 2022 11:42:26 GMT
I don't pretend to understand how best to run a business or a football club, but the takeaway for me reading this thread is that if Luton can become a Championship club then it is also possible for Bristol Rovers to do the same. If we can follow the Luton model and do it in a "sustainable" way then I would suggest this is the way to go. Quite how we get there I do not know. I would not be comfortable with a "Championship or bust" approach. We as a club do need a period in the Championship if we are to attract fans away from the dark side. I have said many times on here that I believe this is also achievable within BS7. I would like to see us remain in control of our prime asset (i.e. 100% own the land and the stadium), upgrade the Mem and build for the Championship. If it takes 10 years to get there, then so be it. We should have a plan and communicate that to the fanbase. I 100% agree we could do a Brentford or Luton at the mem.Both were the Same or smaller sides clubs as us while at our level, but got to a decent championship level in grounds very similar to the mems standard today.Ive always thought it was a cop out that we couldn't become a championship club due to the mem as both these clubs are proving that wrong. Some people seem to just like us still being thought of as poor old "ragbag Bristol Rovers." We are a club from the 6th/7th largest city in the country, have some ambition. If you look at some of the customer success stories from Arena Seating, you could easily transform the East Side of the ground already. As the West and North use the fan zone at half-time, you can add toilets and hospitality outside the ground on the East Terrace. Please don't say that things can not be done...they can, without just waiting for a new Stadium to be built - at least 5 years away.
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icegas
Joined: September 2014
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Post by icegas on Mar 1, 2022 12:27:02 GMT
I 100% agree we could do a Brentford or Luton at the mem.Both were the Same or smaller sides clubs as us while at our level, but got to a decent championship level in grounds very similar to the mems standard today.Ive always thought it was a cop out that we couldn't become a championship club due to the mem as both these clubs are proving that wrong. Some people seem to just like us still being thought of as poor old "ragbag Bristol Rovers." We are a club from the 6th/7th largest city in the country, have some ambition. If you look at some of the customer success stories from Arena Seating, you could easily transform the East Side of the ground already. As the West and North use the fan zone at half-time, you can add toilets and hospitality outside the ground on the East Terrace. Please don't say that things can not be done...they can, without just waiting for a new Stadium to be built - at least 5 years away. Completely agree. I opened this thread as I couldn't believe the madness on Saturday.The que for toilet was 500 deep, as was the food. We have all that space behind the east stand to put extra food/bar stools there and a extra toilet there like in the away terrace, we could easily push the fence back into the carpark alittle to do this. I like said in my opening post, you can't get 12k in there anymore and give the customer value for money. I could only see half the pitch for most of Saturdays game and while I still enjoyed the day,and I was willing to part with my cash as I'm a Gashead, but the part timers and younger generation are not. We could add the above and get 10k/11k in there if we removed that stupid new tent!
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
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Post by kingswood Polak on Mar 1, 2022 12:36:31 GMT
I don't pretend to understand how best to run a business or a football club, but the takeaway for me reading this thread is that if Luton can become a Championship club then it is also possible for Bristol Rovers to do the same. If we can follow the Luton model and do it in a "sustainable" way then I would suggest this is the way to go. Quite how we get there I do not know. I would not be comfortable with a "Championship or bust" approach. We as a club do need a period in the Championship if we are to attract fans away from the dark side. I have said many times on here that I believe this is also achievable within BS7. I would like to see us remain in control of our prime asset (i.e. 100% own the land and the stadium), upgrade the Mem and build for the Championship. If it takes 10 years to get there, then so be it. We should have a plan and communicate that to the fanbase. As much as i would like the same thing i know that the mem is not suitable for large crowds. We really do need to move Rich as just look at how difficult it is to get out of the ground with Saturdays game, imagine if there was an emergency or, god forbid, a fire. Personally, i have reconciled to not seeing anything in my lifetime but i do hope that younger Rovers supporters do get to see the club in a new or different place, one that is fit for purpose. I wonder what happened with the houses that a director or directors bought, in anticipation of the sainsbury’s plan and whether they are owned by the club ?
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
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Post by kingswood Polak on Mar 1, 2022 12:42:12 GMT
I 100% agree we could do a Brentford or Luton at the mem.Both were the Same or smaller sides clubs as us while at our level, but got to a decent championship level in grounds very similar to the mems standard today.Ive always thought it was a cop out that we couldn't become a championship club due to the mem as both these clubs are proving that wrong. Some people seem to just like us still being thought of as poor old "ragbag Bristol Rovers." We are a club from the 6th/7th largest city in the country, have some ambition. If you look at some of the customer success stories from Arena Seating, you could easily transform the East Side of the ground already. As the West and North use the fan zone at half-time, you can add toilets and hospitality outside the ground on the East Terrace. Please don't say that things can not be done...they can, without just waiting for a new Stadium to be built - at least 5 years away. Completely agree, The club have not done anything in terms of upgrading the mem and have just seemed to place temporary things, in place that they can. The old girl could do with some attention as well as we were constantly being showered with rusty paint from above us. There is certainly a lot of room for improvement but, for whatever reason, it is not being done
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eppinggas
Administrator
Ian Alexander
Don't care
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 8,197
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Post by eppinggas on Mar 1, 2022 12:54:04 GMT
I don't pretend to understand how best to run a business or a football club, but the takeaway for me reading this thread is that if Luton can become a Championship club then it is also possible for Bristol Rovers to do the same. If we can follow the Luton model and do it in a "sustainable" way then I would suggest this is the way to go. Quite how we get there I do not know. I would not be comfortable with a "Championship or bust" approach. We as a club do need a period in the Championship if we are to attract fans away from the dark side. I have said many times on here that I believe this is also achievable within BS7. I would like to see us remain in control of our prime asset (i.e. 100% own the land and the stadium), upgrade the Mem and build for the Championship. If it takes 10 years to get there, then so be it. We should have a plan and communicate that to the fanbase.No sh*t. UWE (v1) collapsed August 2017. Since then there has been nothing but empty words with regard to a new stadium / Memorial stadium regeneration. Rest assured everyone is working very hard behind the scenes.
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kingswood Polak
Without music life would be a mistake
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,278
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Post by kingswood Polak on Mar 1, 2022 13:16:48 GMT
I don't pretend to understand how best to run a business or a football club, but the takeaway for me reading this thread is that if Luton can become a Championship club then it is also possible for Bristol Rovers to do the same. If we can follow the Luton model and do it in a "sustainable" way then I would suggest this is the way to go. Quite how we get there I do not know. I would not be comfortable with a "Championship or bust" approach. We as a club do need a period in the Championship if we are to attract fans away from the dark side. I have said many times on here that I believe this is also achievable within BS7. I would like to see us remain in control of our prime asset (i.e. 100% own the land and the stadium), upgrade the Mem and build for the Championship. If it takes 10 years to get there, then so be it. We should have a plan and communicate that to the fanbase.No sh*t. UWE (v1) collapsed August 2017. Since then there has been nothing but empty words with regard to a new stadium / Memorial stadium regeneration. Rest assured everyone is working very hard in the background. That did make me laugh mate. Rest assured, how can anyone rest assured when we have not heard any word about it for a long time and the topic is ignored if you ask about it. What you do get is political replies that tak about the training facility and no direct reply
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Post by russiangas on Mar 20, 2022 17:13:50 GMT
I won't claim to be any kind of expert but it seems to me that common sense dictates the more unknowns and more things out of the club's control there are, the less likely any stadium scheme is to succeed. The fruit market scheme seems full of unknowns. We own the mem so surely that's a large part if the battle obtaining the land to build the thing. I don't really see the infrastructure arguement tbh, Ashton gate has no real infrastructure, tiny car park, train station not really near etc. If you have a stadium that people want to attend because it's nice they we I'll get there. Why not like it's been suggested by others don't the club rebuild the mem a stand at a time over the next few seasons. I think the main point is to actually start physically doing something rather than just making grand schemes in paper which in sure thousands have been wasted in in the past. We don't have to have the absolute ideal stadium a decent adequate thing will do, 16-18,000 I am think would be fine for us at championship level. I know people talk about potential support and sleeping supporters but i can't see 25000+ suddenly turning up the minute we get into the championship. Then if we outgrow the mem maybe move at that point but at least give us something that we're not ashamed of in the meantime that is acceptable for a league one level club, which lets accept it is our natural level where we have spent to the majority of our history. The mem isn't fit for national League level even, it's like the worst DIY bodger's attempt at making a football stadium out of stuff he's liberated from skips.
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Post by swissgas on Mar 21, 2022 18:04:47 GMT
I won't claim to be any kind of expert but it seems to me that common sense dictates the more unknowns and more things out of the club's control there are, the less likely any stadium scheme is to succeed. The fruit market scheme seems full of unknowns. We own the mem so surely that's a large part if the battle obtaining the land to build the thing. I don't really see the infrastructure arguement tbh, Ashton gate has no real infrastructure, tiny car park, train station not really near etc. If you have a stadium that people want to attend because it's nice they we I'll get there. Why not like it's been suggested by others don't the club rebuild the mem a stand at a time over the next few seasons. I think the main point is to actually start physically doing something rather than just making grand schemes in paper which in sure thousands have been wasted in in the past. We don't have to have the absolute ideal stadium a decent adequate thing will do, 16-18,000 I am think would be fine for us at championship level. I know people talk about potential support and sleeping supporters but i can't see 25000+ suddenly turning up the minute we get into the championship. Then if we outgrow the mem maybe move at that point but at least give us something that we're not ashamed of in the meantime that is acceptable for a league one level club, which lets accept it is our natural level where we have spent to the majority of our history. The mem isn't fit for national League level even, it's like the worst DIY bodger's attempt at making a football stadium out of stuff he's liberated from skips. You will be pleased to hear that redevelopment of the Mem has commenced with the first stage being a major upgrade of the club offices.
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syg
Joined: June 2014
Posts: 1,011
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Post by syg on Mar 21, 2022 19:06:28 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2022 19:29:23 GMT
This club is like chalk and cheese compared to a few years ago. Tom Gorringe is certainly dragging it into the 21st century.
Fantastic stuff.
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